how to know a WWII KABAR?

[ZerowG]

What would you say the value of that knife is on estimate

[1967redrider]

What would you say the value of that knife is on estimate

The only way to know for sure is to list it on eBay and see what it sells for. But you can do an eBay "Completed Listings" search and see what comparables sold for.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=ka ... 1&_sacat=0

639 results to peruse.

[Ittsukan]

I already started a thread but someone suggested I post here as well. Admins, please delete if not allowed

The real deal or a reproduction? By reproduction, I mean a 50 year old 1970's reintroduction model that looks old.

I usually collect pocket knives and the odd bayonet but recently stumbled upon a deal on some vintage fixed blades at a price I couldn't turn down.
This Ka-Bar was in the lot. Everything seems to point to it being WWII era but I want to be sure. I've searched through the forums and various sites on the intertubes but I'd like to get your opinions.
- The pommel is square/peened
- The pommel is 3/8" thick
- No black spacers, or red ones either, sadly
- No branch markings on the guard or ricasso
- Only KA-Bar on the ricasso as seen in the photos
- No branch marks on the sheath
- Sheath is marked BOYT -43-
- Sheath is stitched and reinforced with 9 staples
- Staples, snap and rivet holding the closure strap appear to be brass as there is evidence of verdigris

I'm fairly certain it isn't a reproduction. What do you all think?

[eveled]

Definitely not a reproduction, everything about the knife and sheath indicates ww2 era. Nice find.

[Ittsukan]

Just heard back from Ka-Bar and they confirmed it is WWII era made by Ka-Bar 1943 or early 1944 Considered a fighting/utility as it wasn't designated to a particular branch.
Still would like to hear your opinions though, especially in care and feeding.

[zzyzzogeton]

All of the 1219C2s/USN-MK2s were designated as "fighting/utility knives", regardless of the branch stamp or lack thereof.

This one was MOST LIKELY issued via the USMC Supply system as it has a leather sheath. The Marine side of the Navy supply system generally only issued leather sheaths while the Navy side usually issued fiberglass sheaths. There could obviously be exceptions to that general rule of thumb and trades could also occur.

On general care, a light dose of mineral oil and a little rubbing with 0000 steel wool would kill the light rust that is trying to form on the pommel and guard and a light swipe of mineral oil on the blade will help prevent rust from reappearing on the blade.

I would use a toothpick to carefully pick out/remove the verdigris from the staples and snap. They are very good at scraping away verdigris from under the staples. You could then use a clean toothpick with a little naptha (very flammable - use only outdoors or in a well ventilated space) or white vinegar to dissolve/remove leftover verdigris. You don't want to soak the leather areas with naptha or vinegar, you just want enough to get the tip of the toothpick damp enough to remove the last remnants of the verdigris.

I would then use a light application of Renaissance Wax or Pecard's Leather conditioner to put a protective coating on the surface of the staples and snap. This is slow down the reformation of verdigris. It will NOT prevent it from coming back in the long run. Once verdigris has begun around and under staples and snaps, it will always come back. One is simply attempting to slow down its reappearance.

[Ittsukan]

All of the 1219C2s/USN-MK2s were designated as "fighting/utility knives", regardless of the branch stamp or lack thereof.

This one was MOST LIKELY issued via the USMC Supply system as it has a leather sheath. The Marine side of the Navy supply system generally only issued leather sheaths while the Navy side usually issued fiberglass sheaths. There could obviously be exceptions to that general rule of thumb and trades could also occur.

On general care,...

Thanks for your input. It's very helpful.

The fighting/utility thing is from the Ka-Bar rep. I think what they were trying to infer was that this knife isn't referred to as an 1219C2 or a USN-MKII because it has no branch designation markings so was never issued and used in the field.

I don't know if that's true or not. No idea and smarter people than me could probably say whether any knives were issued without any branch designation markings. I'd like to know if anyone can answer to that.

For all I know, this knife sat in storage from 1943, through Korea and Vietnam until it ended up in some surplus store where it was bought by the avid hunter uncle of the person I got it from. There, for 30+ years it could have got the use and abuse shown by its present condition.

It is a curious question though, for any artifact of this kind. Was it used in the field? Was it carried during active duty? Friends always joke about there being "haunted" knives.

Again, thanks for your input and the cleaning tips. They are greatly appreciated.

[zzyzzogeton]

Actually, the "fighting/utility" verbiage comes from the government as part of the official nomenclature.

When the knife was first approved in late 1942, it was designated the USMC 1219C2 Combat Knife and later the 1219C2 MK2 Knife, Fighting/Utility.

When the Navy jumped on the band wagon because of disappointments with the various MK1s varieties, they adopted the MK2 designating their version as the US Navy Utility Knife, MK2.

It's possible that the branchless thick peened pommel versions were from early contract batches before the Navy adopted the knife and USN/USMC started being stamped, but that's just a wild-ass speculative guess as there is no documentation indicating this. But don't bet any money on that guess.

[Ittsukan]

Actually, the "fighting/utility" verbiage comes from the government as part of the official nomenclature.

When the knife was first approved in late 1942, it was designated the USMC 1219C2 Combat Knife and later the 1219C2 MK2 Knife, Fighting/Utility.

When the Navy jumped on the band wagon because of disappointments with the various MK1s varieties, they adopted the MK2 designating their version as the US Navy Utility Knife, MK2.

It's possible that the branchless thick peened pommel versions were from early contract batches before the Navy adopted the knife and USN/USMC started being stamped, but that's just a wild-ass speculative guess as there is no documentation indicating this. But don't bet any money on that guess.

Yes, of course. That's where the Ka-Bar rep got it from.
It's too bad that it doesn't have a branch stamp. I know a few old Marines that would get a kick out of seeing this showing up in Canada.
Thanks for the info. It's greatly appreciated.

[Forrestp38829]

Hi. I was just given this knife. The handle immediately crumbled to dust. But I've made a lot of stacked leather handles. Anyways. I think it might just be a run of the mill WWII usn knife, but in case I missed something can someone fill me in. Also, I'm very curious about what the number on the back of the scabbard mean. The BM Co 1/3 vp. I've seen 1/6 vp and even 2 vp. Just curious what that means. Thanks a lot in advance. This thread has been an awesome read. Also I like the sound it makes coming out of the sheath.

[eveled]

Those scabards were made by a third party bought separately. Then issued with the knives. The Navy used a lot of them. For MKI and MKII knives. I found an article about a similar sheath that was used for the M8 knife. The article says they were made by a company that employed blind veterans in Pennsylvania.

The working home for Blind Men. I think the BM co is shortened version of Blind Men. The other stuff if probably batches and production info. I’ve never seen info on that.

[zzyzzogeton]

BM Co. is Beckworth Manufacturing Company.

VP was its Victory Plastics division.

NORD 8114 is Naval Ordnance Contract #8114 which was issued in March 1945 for 672,000 scabbard,

The numbers between the BM Co. and VP are internal batch control numbers for tracking which run number of a batch of steel was used for the scabbard throats. 1/3 means run 1 using USN MK2 steel batch 3.

[eveled]

Thanks for correcting me. I don’t want to spread false info.
Here is part of the document I found. It seems to just apply to m8 scabbards. Interesting non the less.

[zzyzzogeton]

Pennsylvania Working House for the Blind, later renamed to The Working Blind in Philadelphia, only made M8A1 scabbards and never had a contract to make USN MK2 scabbards. They got their first contract in 1965. Between 1965 and 1969 they made 4M scabbards, with about 1M going to South Viet Nam and South Korea.

[eveled]

Thanks.

[Rubblemaker]

Hello all,
First post on this forum. I’d like to share some pics and information about my KA-BAR 1219C2.
I use it in camp still but not for anything idiotic like batoning kindling or digging.
This was my grandmother’s hunting knife.
My grandparents were avid hunters in Canada going back to the 1940s. My grandfather had bad eyesight so grandma was the markswoman and would drop a moose every fall to fill the freezer. They always used high quality outdoor gear. A lot of their camp gear was military surplus. This WW2 USMC knife was probably surplus gear that somehow wound up in the great white north of western Canada where it was used a lot for hunting between the 1950s to the early 1990s when it was retired to a drawer.
Doing a little research on KA-BAR knives is interesting.
This specimen has KA-BAR and USMC Ricasso stamps, the thinner 1/4” pommel plate is pinned through. I don’t see
any red spacers. Just a tight stacked leather handle.

When I got the knife after grandpa passed it was not rusted but needed some TLC. I gently removed any surface crud and verdigris from the brass sheath pins.
The sheath had a rather large slash right through the lower tip that was a potential hazard so I patched it over with a piece of full grain veg tan boot makers leather. Hopefully this repair hasn’t seriously devalued this piece. It’s an item I use regularly. I doubt it has been in the guts of a samurai on Iwo Jima. It’s definitely been used to field dress many moose and deer though.

This knife reminds me of my Grandma Beth! She was a serious badass who raised a gaggle of siblings during the depression. She wrangled horses as a kid and could pitch a baseball as fast as a strong man. She was a psychiatric nurse in the late 40s to early 50s which is probably why she was able to handle living with my Grandfather! Haha. He’s a whole other story.

I’m just guessing that this blade is made sometime between 1943 to 1945??

[Reverand]

I love that knife!
I do not believe that your sheath repair has devalued the knife any. It is an honest repair to an original sheath. Any devaluing happened when the sheath was damaged. Besides, it was used in real-life situations, the way a knife is supposed to be used! A museum-grade knife that stays in a safe has high value, but what good is that until you sell it? Your knife has sentimental value in the memories it brings of good people and a family heritage. That is worth more than money.
I recommend you treat the leather occasionally to keep it from drying out and cracking, keep the blade oiled and sharp, and use the knife on occasion.
I hope you can someday pass down the knife and the family values to a future generation!

[Rubblemaker]

Thanks reverand.
I couldn’t sell this and i plan to give it to my son or nephew.
I restored two of my grandads old Sheffield made scout knives from the 1930s and made new sheaths for them with my son. I gave one to my sisters boy for his 8th birthday and his dad is showing him how to use it properly for camping and fishin. It’s his great granddaddy’s which hopefully he can pass along to his kids or grandkids! Teaching kids to fish, hunt and trap is the best way to keep them out of trouble. Self reliance and transferable life skills like that are part of Canada’s heritage.

[1967redrider]

Awesome knife and history, a family treasure. Thanks for posting and to AAPK!