All About Pocket Knives

I've seen a hand full of these unfinished Uncle Henry's and Old Timers come up for sale on feebay. I am making the assumption they are part of the inventory liquidation at the close of business of 2004. The curious part is, they appear to have pin through bolster design as apposed to a swinden key. Did Schrade abandon the swinden key in their latter years? Or am I missing something here?

I have a Schrade stockman Model number SWA834Y in the Schrade plastic tube package. The knife has a "SCHRADE" shield, but obvious steel pins. The card included in the packaging reads, "...Ellenville, NY factory closed in 2004. Production of these knives was moved to Camillus, New York. Used Under License from Taylor Cutlery, LLC." So, Camillus built some Schrades for Taylor after Schrade, but before Camillus closed.

That looks like something that somebody put together in their garage. The pins have waffle marks on them like they were driven in with a hammer.

Case V42 wrote:I have a Schrade stockman Model number SWA834Y in the Schrade plastic tube package. The knife has a "SCHRADE" shield, but obvious steel pins. The card included in the packaging reads, "...Ellenville, NY factory closed in 2004. Production of these knives was moved to Camillus, New York. Used Under License from Taylor Cutlery, LLC." So, Camillus built some Schrades for Taylor after Schrade, but before Camillus closed.

That definitely explains things then.

Mustanger wrote:That looks like something that somebody put together in their garage. The pins have waffle marks on them like they were driven in with a hammer.

Me thinks that's how they were made. Whether compressed or hammered, I've seen unfinished Camillus knives look the same way.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Camillus-New-Y ... 1129232016

Mustanger wrote:That looks like something that somebody put together in their garage. The pins have waffle marks on them like they were driven in with a hammer.

Yes I would bet that it did not come out of the schrade factory as we see it now. The secondary blades look strange to me, they appear to have a different profile than schrade blades do on all the 4” stockmans. They look much more narrow, they may not be schrade blades at all.

Over a few post on the closing of the Camillus factory there has been a few posts with unfinished knives with the same pins.
In different topics it was shown that Camillus did make blades for Schrade.
Also Camillus made some knives for Taylor with the different Schrade tang stamps.

Grant

Camillus made some folding knives for Schrade in the common patterns even BEFORE the bankruptcy. And so did Imperial, as far as that goes. It was all under one ownership, anyway.

I Scored These Three Not Ten Minutes From Ellenville , This Year , Similar Pattern On Bolsters , un Finished . KC Though a Different Pattern , A last ditch effort none the less

I believe the 8OT in the OP was probably put together at Camillus or somewhere else because that knife is made with through pin construction, not Swinden.
The 5UHs posted by KleenCut have a through pin at the front bolster, this is normal construction for the 5UH in the 5OTs, this is the way Schrade made them at their factory. Swinden construction does not make sense for most lockbacks, although there is a partial Swinden construction on some of the liner locks like the 55UH and some of the other liner lock patterns. IMHO the Swinden system probably is more cost-effective on multi-bladed knives. The LB series is another series that does not use the Swinden system and the hidden bolster pin.

Over the years Camillus made a lot of parts for Schrade knives and even complete knives. One example that comes to mind is the 886UH with the S.C.C.+/USA 886 UH tang stamp. I have such a knife in my collection it has visible pins in the bolsters and no pins in the handles but if you open the blades and look inside the pocket you will see it is made with post construction. This is a method Camillus used on their knives of attaching Delrin handles using a protrusion (post) of Delrin that fit inside predrilled holes in the outer liner and the handle was secured to the liner by melting the post off flush with the liner. It is a very secure method of attaching handles that Camillus used a great deal. I have never seen that type handle come loose on a knife. It is a method that is pretty unique to Camillus although it may have possibly been used by other knife makers, though I am presently unaware of any who use that method.
Another complete knife we know made by Camillus for Schrade with the 898UH, also with the S.C.C.+ tang stamp.


The waffle marks seen on the ends of the pins are caused from the presses that they used to set the pins and the waffle marks help to spread the head of the pin to give a secure fit in the tapered pin holes. I believe the 5OT in the original post was probably made in the Camillus factory and the 5UHs posted by KleenCut were probably done at the Schrade factory. The only readily accessible example of waffle pins I have from the Schrade factory are this LB1 posted below.

These are Camillus knives with the waffle markings on the unground pins.
The since his LB1 that is unfinished and still has waffle marks on a couple of the pins.

Thanks for that info Dale. But... that presents a problem for me. Now I 'need' to add one of those 8OTs to my collection.

gwelker62 wrote:Thanks for that info Dale. But... that presents a problem for me. Now I 'need' to add one of those 8OTs to my collection.

And that my friend is the beauty and the frustration of collecting Schrades, there is always ONE more variant to look for.
This keeps the hobby from becoming boring!

Thanks Also Dale ,And Since You did Post the Pic's What in Gawds Name is That Camillus with 3 ( ?) Blades at the Top Of Photo ? may I ask . And Are there any Pics of it finished , or a Proto of sorts . Really Cool piece .. Thanks KC

KleenCut61 wrote:Thanks Also Dale ,And Since You did Post the Pic's What in Gawds Name is That Camillus with 3 ( ?) Blades at the Top Of Photo ? may I ask . And Are there any Pics of it finished , or a Proto of sorts . Really Cool piece .. Thanks KC

That is a Camillus model #893, part of the Promaster series. You can find it on page 4 of the 1994 Camillus catalog. The blades are 3 ½ inches and include a clip blade, a bone saw and a blunt nose skinner blade. They have a black Kraton handles that fits over the frame and it’s a nice grippy material. The knife is 5 inches closed. I had one a few years ago that I sold and they don’t go cheap. I think it went for $75. The unfinished 893 in my pictures is missing two critical components, (apart from the cover), the springs and the lock bars for the bone saw and the skinner blade. Someday I may be able to put that all together and make a nice handle for it.
The one drawback I saw to the entire Promaster series was that the narrower blades, have narrower lock releases on the rear of the frame and they can be difficult, even painful when trying to release the locked blade to fold it. If you get one that works just perfectly they are excellent!

Here is the link to the 1994 Camillus catalog on the Collectors-of-Camillus website: http://www.collectors-of-camillus.us/Ca ... -CAT4s.pdf
Scroll down to page 4 and you will see the #893 in the middle of the page.

Camillus actually made a lots of really cool knives. They often don't get the credit for the respect I think they deserve.

Thanks Dale , For The Link , And explanation , Apart from The Frame You have , That's the first Look I Had of that model , You just cant judge a Knife By Its Covers , These Days An a Scarce One To Boot ! looks solid as a rock to me , Reminds me Of the Time I Got My First Collectable Camillus , I Found a # 26 Staglon , 60's era , With The Melted Tabs ( Yes ) , I was Showing my sister whom I hadn't seen in years , and Said , Dang where was I When these were Made , She said Being Born , I Need To Hunt Down A 707Y Now ,, Know Of Any Dale ? Good Chatting With You < Take Care sir :

Well since we are now on the topic of Camillus made Schrades... I have a SC505 made by Camillus, but it doesn't appear to have pin thru bolsters. I also have a 886UH and 898UH, and it's obvious they are pin thru. Is it possible Camillus made some Schrades with the Swinden key?

May just be a higher degree of finishing for a Scrimshaw , Than the Uh Models, Were you would No see a pin even under Hi magnification , But just my Opinion , Not Really Positive about it ,

gwelker62 wrote:
Is it possible Camillus made some Schrades with the Swinden key?

No, they could not be assembled without the Swindon machinery. The machinary necessary to set the right tolerances on the hidden pins. Schrade had the only Swindon machinery that was ever produced. The inventor Dave Swindon worked for Schrade.

Camillus may have just made the clip blade for that batch of scrimshaws, especially if it wasn't part of the regular run but rather a large special order and they need the blades pronto.

Eric

ea42 wrote:Camillus may have just made the clip blade for that batch of scrimshaws, especially if it wasn't part of the regular run but rather a large special order and they need the blades pronto.

Eric

I am a little slow on the uptake tonight. I thought we were still talking about the original 8OT.

The knives with blades, which are tang stamped with the S.C.C.+ tang stamps, were to the best of my knowledge made at the Camillus factory and some were assembled there, but not necessarily all of them.

Two examples of this are the 898UH and the 885UH; both patterns were tang stamped with the S.C.C.+ tang stamp. Below is a copy of the two S-cards, which detail the manufacturing instructions for both patterns including the tang stamp, the handle covering, blades, types of pins to be used including whether they were to be spun or not. In short it was all the details the Camillus factory workers needed to make that production run of knives according to the specifications of the customer who had ordered it. In this case the customer ordering the knives was Schrade. These knives were finished at the Camillus factory.
Now, there were 8OTs also produced completely at the Camillus factory, however they DID NOT have the S.C.C.+ tang stamp. Instead if you look at the S-card below you will see that these 8OT these were stamped on the mark side of the clip blade: written “Clip M.S.” on the card, and the tang stamp was SCHRADE/U.S.A. 8OT, as detailed in the lower right-hand box of the S-card.
Here we have examples of knives that were completed at the Camillus factory that had the special S.C.C.+ tang stamp, and we have the 8OT, which was made entirely at the Camillus factory and did not have a special tang stamp. But if you read the card, these knives were made with through pin construction NOT Swinden construction. Look at the lower left-hand part of the card in the first column says: “BOLSTER PIN (2).” The second column gives the die number to be used, and the third column indicates the type of pins to be used: “N.S.” indicating they were nickel silver pens. These were definitely not knives made of Swinden construction, they were obviously through pin construction and they were made in 1986! This is long after we would expect to find a new through pin Old Timer on the shelf at your local knife shop. What we don’t know is where these knives went, they could have been made for export so far as we know, the card just does not tell us those details. But if you look around the card you’ll find even more information about this knife including the fact that the master blade was to be made with a long pull.

So from Camillus’ his own records we see that they made knives of through pin construction for Schrade, both with the special S.C.C.+ tang stamp and the appropriate tang stamp we would expect to find on the given pattern, in this case the 8OT.


Now, there is a third way in which Camillus helped her produce knives for Schrade and that is they would make parts for them so that Schrade could assemble the knives themselves.
In the purchase order #2367, shown below, and dated 4/17/86 we see that Schrade ordered knife blades to be made at the Camillus factory for installation in knives at the Schrade factory. They ordered 180,000 blades; 30,000 of each blade use and the 8OT and in the 34OT. This was enough blades to for 60,000 stockman knives, 30,000 of the 8OT and 30,000 of the 34OT.
Sometimes it seems like the supply of Old Timers and Uncle Henrys is nearly endless, you can still buy them NIB online. When you look at orders like these you understand why. The S-card for the 8OT is dated February 13, 1986 and then we look at the purchase order for 180,000 blades enough to make 30,000 new 8OTs and 30,000 new 34OTs and we realize it was barely two months later when that order was placed then we begin to get a little bit of an idea of how many knives were made with Schrades name on them!


Eric is absolutely correct, Camillus probably made the SCC 505 blades for the scrimshaw knives, and the reason you don’t see the through pen is that the knives were manufactured in the Schrade factory on the Swinden machinery.
At least that’s my understanding of the way it worked. Eric was a lot closer to what went on in Schrade than I was, (about 3000 miles closer). My information is all secondhand so if I am mistaken, Eric please feel free to set the record straight, with my blessing!

Local Lore : My Late Step dad Worked in the Walden Plant With a Man who Fed A machine that Stretched Wire Down from 7/16 To 3/8 th , He told me How he would get his finger caught and it would come out 3/8 , Funny Now that I think about it , with mentioning the Swinden system , Very Indepth and Comprehensive , Having manufacturing purchase orders and invoices Wow !!

gwelker62 wrote:I've seen a hand full of these unfinished Uncle Henry's and Old Timers come up for sale on feebay. I am making the assumption they are part of the inventory liquidation at the close of business of 2004. The curious part is, they appear to have pin through bolster design as apposed to a swinden key. Did Schrade abandon the swinden key in their latter years? Or am I missing something here?

After seeing your knife and the information Dale supplied it looks like I will be on the search for a 8OT with the pins through the bolsters.

Grant

orvet wrote: I am a little slow on the uptake tonight. I thought we were still talking about the original 8OT.

You answered my question regardless of your slowness. I was basically asking if Camillus had the ability to manufacture any knife with the Swinden key.

orvet wrote:Eric is absolutely correct, Camillus probably made the SCC 505 blades for the scrimshaw knives, and the reason you don’t see the through pen is that the knives were manufactured in the Schrade factory on the Swinden machinery.

Which would have lead to my next question, and Eric answered before I asked it.