A Different Ethical Question

[QTCut5]

On the subject of switchblades and ethics, I would be curious to know the thoughts/feelings/opinions of other members with regard to my particular situation.

Twenty years ago I had a number of automatic knives in my collection when I moved to where I now live in Hawaii. As you switchblade collectors likely already know, HI is probably the single most unfriendly state when it comes to automatic knives; they are expressly illegal for private citizens to buy, sell or own in the state, full stop (exceptions for the usual groups such as EMTs, LEOs, military, etc.) So, the second I brought my collection with me to HI, I was instantly in violation of the law and subject to fines and/or imprisonment were my autos to be discovered somehow by the authorities.

Now, not counting my years as an arrogant youth when I believed that rules were there to be broken and the only goal was not to get caught, I consider myself a law-abiding citizen and I strive to obey all the laws of the land (even posted speed limits... in most instances ). So, I faced an obvious dilemma: what to do with my beautiful and cherished collection of once legal but now "contraband" automatic knives . According to the law I wasn't allowed to keep them in the state nor could I legally sell them. Even giving them away would have constituted a violation of the law for transporting illegal goods across state lines were I to send them to friends as gifts. I was in a no-win situation regardless of what I chose to do.

My question to y'all is this: What would be the "ethical" course of action for me to take to resolve this apparent paradox? Should I have destroyed the knives, perhaps? What would you have done were you in my shoes?

[No youre wrong]

Tough dilemma. Maybe just sit tight with them and hope laws change.

[Dinadan]

Ethically, I do not see that you have done anything wrong. You have harmed no one. I would just carry one as you have done for the past twenty years.

Legally, your situation reminds me of the problem with old ivory that is not properly documented. There may be no legal path to transfer ownership.

[QTCut5]

That would be one option, although technically still illegal and therefore probably also unethical by definition.

I'll reveal what I eventually did with my autos but only after hearing some opinions from other members.

[98src]

Package them up and send them to a dealer in the lower 48 in a state where it is legal.

[QTCut5]

I'm probably wading too deep into esoteric philosophical water here, but I guess the fundamental question I was wrestling with is whether it is possible to knowingly break the law and still act ethically.

Perhaps the definition of "ethical" is subjective and relative to a given situation . I was always under the impression that "ethical" basically meant doing what is "right" versus doing what is "wrong", and breaking the law definitely falls under the category of "wrong" according to this possibly overly simplistic perspective.

[kennedy knives]

I'm probably wading too deep into esoteric philosophical water here, but I guess the fundamental question I was wrestling with is whether it is possible to knowingly break the law and still act ethically.

Perhaps the definition of "ethical" is subjective and relative to a given situation . I was always under the impression that "ethical" basically meant doing what is "right" versus doing what is "wrong", and breaking the law definitely falls under the category of "wrong" according to this possibly overly simplistic perspective.

Q I don't think there is a right answer to your problem

[jw517]

I would pak them up with foil and mail them to a kind,honest,trustworthy, person in oh,say Wi. where they are legal. Want my address?
Really though,I would have maybe taken care of this before I moved there or NOT MOVED THERE. I think you should keep them in a place you can take them out and enjoy them when you want but the fire dept/police won’t find them in an emergency. A lock box/safe type of thing.

[1967redrider]

If you possess an automatic knife in your home, how are you going to commit a crime? Hold yourself up at knife point? The same mental giants that made these ridiculous laws aren't the ones enforcing them, and if a law isn't being enforced, what good is it? Just look at all of the rip and run thefts going on in California because criminals aren't being prosecuted.

Enjoy your collection and don't hold up any Sephoras.

[QTCut5]

If you possess an automatic knife in your home, how are you going to commit a crime?

But John, according to the law I have already committed a crime simply by owning the knife. It has nothing to do with my intended use of said knife.


BTW and FWIW, not that lawyers are particularly known for their unwavering adherence to strict ethical standards, but out of curiosity I asked two lawyer friends of mine for their advice on how I could resolve my dilemma while maintaining my own standard of ethics in obeying the law. Neither of them could come up with an answer apart from giving me advice on how I could possibly plead my case if I happened to get caught and cited for violating the law. One of them referred to it as the "Rock and a hard place" defense.

[QTCut5]

I would have maybe taken care of this before I moved there or NOT MOVED THERE.

Although that is sound advice, keep in mind that twenty years ago the autos in my collection were illegal for civilians to own pretty much everywhere, so I knew I was breaking the law at the time I bought them (amazing how easy it was, too, I didn't even have to smuggle them in any body cavities across the Mexican border!).

But, when I moved to Hawaii, I was more mature and, more importantly, I had more to lose if I happened to get busted with a cache of illegal switchblades than when I was younger and less concerned with ethics. Unfortunately, I had no access to a time machine that could take me back to before I moved so that I could take care of the problem retroactively. The nefarious deed had been done and hindsight reparations simply was not an option (is it ever?)

[jw517]

Want my address? Run for the state congress and change things? I know, I’m no help. I’d just make sure the authorities don’t find them if you had an emergency. You will be fine.

[QTCut5]

To be completely honest, my concern with owning illegal switchblades was less about my high ethical standards and more about living in a state of perpetual fear and paranoia that I would eventually get busted because someone who knew I had them said something to someone else and eventually word got around and one day I got a knock on the door from two detectives investigating rumors of a large cache of "illegal arms" hidden at my residence (we all know that most people can't keep a juicy secret to themselves and that rumors tend to get embellished with each telling).

Anyway, it's a moot point now since I have already resolved the situation. I was just curious to know what other ostensibly law-abiding, ethically conscientious knife collectors would have done in a similar situation.

[Madmarco]

It almost surprises me that you're an auto fan, ~Q~, you never posts pictures of them, although after reading just how paranoid you are about your situation I can certainly understand why, but you've been so silent about owning them I doubt many folks who might snitch even know you own them.
I have the perfect solution to your dilemma, SEND THEM ALL TO ME, that way you're in the clear, and even if they get seize by Customs you'll still be free of the problem. I'm going to qualify my statement with a hearty LOL, just in case anyone thinks I'm serious.
Seriously though, I look at Customs, or for that matter any law enforcement regarding autos, with contempt. The laws are antiquated and utterly ridiculous in this day and age.
When I first got nasty letters from Customs regarding them seizing one of my knives I'd get nervous cuz they threatened big fines and/or prison, prison mind you not just jail for 2 yrs. less a day, but then I realized that the chances of Customs contacting our RCMP the equivalent of your FBI, to arrest some nobody for collecting automatic knives were slim to none, and I was right. At one point I was speaking with Customs on the phone regarding a seizure, and I dared them to take me to court so I could expose all the underhanded practices they employ, and I wouldn't have to pay for it if they initiated the situation. I've since received about 40 autos for my accumulation with only a handful being seized, and they don't even send me their nasty letters any longer.
I'd say that your bottom-line would be to keep and enjoy your knives at home and never take one out with you, since the chances of your law enforcement busting down your door without being tipped-off by some jerk are slim to none!
Look at my situation, I post pictures of my autos that could be used as proof, as well as not being shy about folks knowing my address and my derogatory comments directed at Customs, yet I've had no trouble.
I very much doubt that law enforcement thinks about us anywhere near to what we think they do!
Keep your knives, my friend, if they were gone you would sorely miss them!

[Madmarco]

How have you resolved the situation, ~Q~?

[Sharpnshinyknives]

Q, it’s a fair and good question. When it gets right down to it, we all are probably breaking some law that is on the books in our state that hardly anyone knows about. Eating an orange in a hotel room use to be against the law in some states, I guess the odor must have offended someone. Here in Indiana it’s against the law to sell property with human remains on them. With cremation being a more and more popular option many are taking, it’s a real dilemma for some who want their ashes scattered on a certain property. Yet people do it all the time even after they have been told.
Not that any of these examples should be taken as license to do things against the law, just to show that our legislators seem to think that they need to make up all kinds of laws to justify their existence or success, or who knows what they are justifying in their minds.
Personally I think that when a law is made up that makes no sense, like the one you are talking about, then it doesn’t bother me to ignore it and do it anyway. This is much different from doing things that are morally wrong or breaking a commandment knowing you are doing wrong. For me that’s the difference and the reason for going ahead. This situation doesn’t strike me as a moral issue or by any means a commandment.

[QGofLake]

I'm probably wading too deep into esoteric philosophical water here, but I guess the fundamental question I was wrestling with is whether it is possible to knowingly break the law and still act ethically.

Perhaps the definition of "ethical" is subjective and relative to a given situation . I was always under the impression that "ethical" basically meant doing what is "right" versus doing what is "wrong", and breaking the law definitely falls under the category of "wrong" according to this possibly overly simplistic perspective.

I think your question here cuts to the heart of the consideration. In my opinion, an act that is inconsistent with a particular law is not inherently unethical. When I drive on the highway, my pedal foot sometimes gets the best of me and I do so knowingly. Is speeding unethical? In a residential neighborhood, yes. On a well engineered highway? IMO no. Both circumstances are however against the law.

Enjoying your collection is not hurting anyone else. I would keep them.

The knife lobby is also quite strong. It could be the laws change in HI. I hope things work out for you.

[CluelessNick]

It always irritates me when I think about it but we have literally thousands of people everyday that are employed strictly to dream up new laws for us to obey. From the U.S. Congress and state legislatures all the way down to your local city council and home owners association there are stupid people creating new stupid laws. The more ridiculous the law the better they seem to like it.
I personally would keep my knives and enjoy them in my own home. You are not harming anyone.

[hardman]

You can still adhere to your own personal ethics even while being in violation of a law. A person's ethics are based on their own principles and values. Hopefully principle centered values. Too often, laws are the result of a ruling party's agenda. And that agenda may NOT be based on principle centered values.

In my state (Michigan), there are some laws and now even a constitutional amendment that is definitely contrary to my own personal beliefs, values, and frankly (IMHO) principles. I will not change my own personal values just because an amoral legislature made what is wrong legal.

[QTCut5]

So many insightful and well-expressed ideas here. Very much appreciated. Once again I am impressed by the wisdom and intelligence of this amazing online community.

As far as principle centered values are concerned, I'm all for them, but I still have to ask myself if I'm willing to risk going to prison if/when my values run counter to a law, regardless of why it was enacted or by whom for whatever agenda. The fact still remains: it's a law. And if I knowingly break it because I disagree with it or it conflicts with my personal ethics, values, principles or standards, I am still subject to the consequences if I get caught in violation of the law. No court of law cares what my ethics are when the evidence before them is obviously and incontrovertibly incriminating.

Now, all that being said, I think you may find it somewhat interesting or possibly even amusing how I finally resolved my switchblade dilemma. As I mentioned earlier, Hawaii State Law makes it illegal to purchase, sell, own, or transport automatic knives by private citizens (with the aforementioned exceptions) and I knowingly broke every single one of those laws to dispose of my switchblade collection. I sold most of them, I bought two new ones (after feeling seller's remorse), I gave some away to friends (sent through the US mail), and I currently still own the two I bought. All this I did with a perfectly clear conscience and no feelings of guilt whatsoever . So much for my high ethical standard of obeying the law

Does that make me a bad person or a criminal?

[bestgear]

Hawaii State Law makes it illegal to purchase, sell, own, or transport automatic knives by private citizens (with the aforementioned exceptions

then gift them to somebody who thinks the switchblade laws are outdated and government over-reach like me

[Madmarco]

And me!

[Ivoryman]

I can't follow how come you had a guilty conscience over a collection of autos, then you sold and sent them away and now the mature, elder, experience you doesn't have the guilty conscience when you picked up two more and intend to keep them? Makes no sense to me. But whatever, not my mind or conscience.
Some cases for me. When grandma died back in the seventies, we went through her stuff and low and behold we found some marijuana leaves pressed inside her Bible. She lived decades before the ban and when she found out the ban was coming, she put some away as a souvenir in her Bible. Total non-smoker too. The horror. It was definitely illegal back then in that state, and the state I lived in. But I didn't have any problem with keeping them. Thought it was a cool relic and kept them and nobody was the wiser. Kept my mouth shut and didn't' care what others thought. Some things should be kept secret from those who are immature and cannot handle the truth. I have no problem ethically because I did nothing wrong. Keeping a keepsake of granny's isn't a crime to me no matter what the item was. Didn't do anything wrong with the item, no harm, no crime, no foul. Keep the confidence, the connection, keep the secret, keep the item from granny, honor her legacy. That's much more important to me than any recent law put on the books when it used to grow wild from time immemorial and did no harm to anyone. Nobody was picking the wild weed and shipping it anywhere or smoking it and committing crime. Nothing criminal was ever done with it, and nothing unethical came of it.
Second. My nephew went to Germany recently and looked up his ancestors and family from there and did some research. In that effort he found some documents, in Germany mind you, that had swastikas on them. The horror. It's illegal to have swastikas now thanks to the do gooders and deniers of real history. And I don't mind laws against crimes or Nazi behavior, but I do mind laws against paper and symbols and true historical documents. I'm against banning books too. Well he thought they were historical relics more than hate speech and unlawful symbols so he brings them home to show us. Loved seeing them, loved that he brought them home and preserved the relics rather than destroy them as the law proscribes. Still think so. I consider it a historical artifact, not a symbol for expressing neo Nazi attitudes or whatever. AND, similarly, I believe those who hid the Jews, and protected them are hero's, even when it was against the law. God bless those who ignored the law and helped their fellow citizens and Jewish neighbors escape Auschwitz. God bless them and may we all be that brave if we're ever in that situation. That's much more important than respecting horrible laws the Nazi's came up with. In that case it is ethical to ignore the laws in favor of helping and saving innocent people who otherwise were headed to the gas chamber.
So I would have kept the autos and since I never do anything harmful or criminal with my knives, it matters not to me whether they are auto or manual. A cutting tool is all they are to me and that's a useful, good item to have that I use for ethical, decent, cutting purposes. No problem for me ethically. I'm willing to stand at the bar on judgement day and state what I did without regret and a clear conscience. I committed no sin with my knives or the swastikas on old papers, or the marijuana leaves. That is the question I would pose. Can you in your own mind honestly say you can face your Maker on judgement day and defend your behavior? That's all that matters to me anyway.
Thirdly, same with ivory. I keep it, I use it, I wear it, I enjoy it. I don't care if they ban it and try to get rid of it either. They can make up their own mind and do whatever they think right. I will do what I think is right. To destroy or waste part of the animal, or valuable, useful material the Creator provided is a bigger sin than following a bad law to me. I try not to destroy anything, but preserve, respect, honor and appreciate it for what it is. I respect the Elephant and love them for what they provide and signify. I preserve part of it and relish the animal it came from and use it as a sign of respect to the Creator who created it and provided it for us. To destroy it or deny and ban it is a bigger sin to me. But that's just me. I would keep the autos, just as I do here now. I have a few and if they pass a law banning them, I'm not turning them in. I will just keep them away from those who can't handle it and enjoy them and keep them for handing down to posterity. Lots of people love seeing my knives and ivory and no harm comes to anyone from them. YRMV.

[QTCut5]

I can't follow how come you had a guilty conscience over a collection of autos, then you sold and sent them away and now the mature, elder, experience you doesn't have the guilty conscience when you picked up two more and intend to keep them? Makes no sense to me. But whatever, not my mind or conscience.

No dude, you misunderstood...I never had, nor said I had, a "guilty conscience" for owning illegal autos. I bought them fully knowing they were illegal when I was younger. In fact, their illegality actually made them more intriguing and desirable to me than if they had been legal. But, many years later, as a mature adult with much more to lose in the event of being convicted of felony possession of illegal switchblades, what I felt was fear and paranoia, not guilt, for having them in my possession and the potential consequences should they ever be discovered. No, it was fear and paranoia, not guilt, that caused me to eventually sell and give them away. As for the two I still have, I do have a very slight concern about them because I am fully aware that simply by owning them I am essentially a criminal in the eyes of Hawaii state law. I know it's extremely unlikely I would ever be convicted of the crime I am actively and daily committing, but there is always that little voice inside my head that is born of fear (not guilt) telling me to beware.

In fact, it was the very lack of guilt I felt (and still feel) despite knowingly breaking the law that led me to wonder if I was in some way being unethical and sacrificing my values, principles and otherwise law-abiding standards for the sake of materialistic enjoyment.

For the record, I will state that I have always felt the switchblade laws in this country are absurd and ridiculous and based on unfounded and baseless propositions and conclusions purely for political purposes. But, my personal feelings don't matter in a court of law where the only thing that does matter is whether or not I am guilty of breaking the law as it is written in the statutes of the state in which I live. End of story.

[Ivoryman]

Well it sounded like guilt to me anyway. Sorry if I was wrong. Misunderstood you definitely. Nevertheless, if it's fear and paranoia, I feel like the same question comes to mind. If when you were younger and less wise you felt fear and paranoia and didn't like it, and then got rid of the knives that were the source of that fear and paranoia, then what happened to flip you back to ignoring the fear and paranoia such that you again started keeping autos around? And it's not my business and I'm not monitoring you or questioning your behavior, just trying to understand because it didn't make sense that you would go back like a dog to the vomit? Although I have said I was going to quit buying knives a hundred times so in that sense am the same like a dog back to the vomit. I am guilty of backsliding straight out. So just wondered because I don't understand how you deal with the fear and paranoia now and why it doesn't bother you as it used to? And hey, not judging or condemning or even questioning what you choose, just trying to understand what the thought process was and how you deal with it now better than you dealt with it then? And again, none of my business. Just commenting because it was unclear to me anyway. Being another born criminal I can't help but try to see how others look at it and wonder. Like to hear how others rationalize stuff relative to how I do also.