What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 10:49 pm
Obviously there was a utilitarian reason for the flat-ended rope blades. I have an old Camillus rope knife and wondered if it was for undoing knots or what?
All About Pocket Knives
All About Pocket Knives is a knife related resource center for buying, selling, researching, and discussing all things knives
http://allaboutpocketknives.com/knife_forum/
What reason for rope blade shape?
http://allaboutpocketknives.com/knife_forum/viewtopic.php?t=81814
Page 1 of 1
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 11:32 pm
So you don't accidentally stab yourself. The sheepsfoot allows for a non-pointy blade that still has a tip good enough for scoring stuff.
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 12:12 am
What Cody said. But also because you wouldn't need to stab anything. Sheeps and hawks bills are good all around slicing shapes, which is what you would do to rope. As for untying the knots, that's what the marlin spike that is often attached to mariners or sailor's knives is for.
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 12:26 am
I always heard the following whether true or not, it makes sense to me. Sailors lived in close quarters with fellow sailors, on long journeys. Personalities didn't always mesh, and hostilities were a real problem. By removing the point, the problems with knife fights were greatly reduced. Second the days of sailing ships that used ropes, these ropes occasionally needed to be cut. Cutting a wet rope is quite difficult. By laying the rope over the railing, laying the blade upon the rope and striking the back side of the blade with a belaying pin would quickly severe the rope. True???
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 1:03 am
Makes sense to me.ThatWeirdKnifeGuy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 12:12 am What Cody said. But also because you wouldn't need to stab anything. Sheeps and hawks bills are good all around slicing shapes, which is what you would do to rope. As for untying the knots, that's what the marlin spike that is often attached to mariners or sailor's knives is for.
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 1:06 am
Who knows? I've always wondered if the belaying pins evolved into the police billy clubs. The pins on tall ships look alot like a cop's night stick.3030remchesterCOLO wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 12:26 am I always heard the following whether true or not, it makes sense to me. Sailors lived in close quarters with fellow sailors, on long journeys. Personalities didn't always mesh, and hostilities were a real problem. By removing the point, the problems with knife fights were greatly reduced. Second the days of sailing ships that used ropes, these ropes occasionally needed to be cut. Cutting a wet rope is quite difficult. By laying the rope over the railing, laying the blade upon the rope and striking the back side of the blade with a belaying pin would quickly severe the rope. True???
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 1:54 am
While working on a ship I was assigned the job of making new moring lines out of 4" diameter three strand nylon line. Measure then cut to length then splice eyes in both ends. My sharp Case Folding Hunter cut it easily with a back and forth motion over a wood board. Old fashioned manila line cuts easily the same way. Now 50 years later internet posters inform that unlike real life experience "rope" is difficult to cut and I should have held a large sheeps foot blade on the line and beat on the blade. Really?
Notice, sailors do not call line "rope." Everone on the deck force needed a knife. Despite all the knives we carried having clip points no one accidentally stabed themselves or got into knife fights. The marlin spikes that are popular with yachtsmen were uncommon. On ships you use a large wooden version called a fid. Also, anyone who had to sand and revarnish a wood taft rail would not use it as a chopping block as suggested above.
Notice, sailors do not call line "rope." Everone on the deck force needed a knife. Despite all the knives we carried having clip points no one accidentally stabed themselves or got into knife fights. The marlin spikes that are popular with yachtsmen were uncommon. On ships you use a large wooden version called a fid. Also, anyone who had to sand and revarnish a wood taft rail would not use it as a chopping block as suggested above.
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:06 pm
Modern Slip Joints wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 1:54 am While working on a ship I was assigned the job of making new moring lines out of 4" diameter three strand nylon line. Measure then cut to length then splice eyes in both ends. My sharp Case Folding Hunter cut it easily with a back and forth motion over a wood board. Old fashioned manila line cuts easily the same way. Now 50 years later internet posters inform that unlike real life experience "rope" is difficult to cut and I should have held a large sheeps foot blade on the line and beat on the blade. Really?
Notice, sailors do not call line "rope." Everone on the deck force needed a knife. Despite all the knives we carried having clip points no one accidentally stabed themselves or got into knife fights. The marlin spikes that are popular with yachtsmen were uncommon. On ships you use a large wooden version called a fid. Also, anyone who had to sand and revarnish a wood taft rail would not use it as a chopping block as suggested above.
OMG you have a sharp knife? I start out everyday with a sharp knife and come home with a blade so dull you could ride to Texas and back on and never cut yourself. I have to cut a lot of electrical insulation, and rubber hoses. The serration section of my Kershaw Leek get a good workout. Sometimes I have to use both hands pulling to make the cut. Many a time I have had to hammer my blade through something. It is good to actually hear from someone like yourself that has real experience with sailing "line".
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:46 pm
I worked for a company setting up old school canvas tents. We used "rope" all day.Modern Slip Joints wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 1:54 am While working on a ship I was assigned the job of making new moring lines out of 4" diameter three strand nylon line. Measure then cut to length then splice eyes in both ends. My sharp Case Folding Hunter cut it easily with a back and forth motion over a wood board. Old fashioned manila line cuts easily the same way. Now 50 years later internet posters inform that unlike real life experience "rope" is difficult to cut and I should have held a large sheeps foot blade on the line and beat on the blade. Really?
Notice, sailors do not call line "rope." Everone on the deck force needed a knife. Despite all the knives we carried having clip points no one accidentally stabed themselves or got into knife fights. The marlin spikes that are popular with yachtsmen were uncommon. On ships you use a large wooden version called a fid. Also, anyone who had to sand and revarnish a wood taft rail would not use it as a chopping block as suggested above.
I work with paracord often. Hawks bills and sheep's foots are good for slicing it.
I personally wouldn't baton any knife with such a narrow spine, but im not a sailor.
Our experience is different but not any less valid. The not stabbing, and using knives without tips, so that they can't stab or break off is historically valid.
Have a nice day friend.
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:58 pm
Apropos of nothing, since someone mentioned "line" and "rope" in a thread about a rope knife....
In the maritime community, "ropes" fall into 4 categories. Small stuff, lines and hawsers. And "rope".
Small stuff is anything less than 1" in diameter. We're usually talking string on up to 1/2" or 3/4", but the BM3&2 definition is "under 1" diameter".
Hawsers are anything with a diameter of over 4".
Lines are everything in between,
A naval quirk is that small stuff and hawsers are referred to by their diameter, while lines are most often called by their circumference. Hence the terms "towing hawser" and "mooring lines".
A 6" towing hawser is 6 inches in diameter, while a 6" mooring line is about 2" in diameter.
A marlin spike is also used as an assisting tool when splicing hawsers, line or small stuff. You use it to pry apart the individual lays in the line so that you can weave the lay ends into the main body of the line. The splicing may be for joining the ends of two segments of line/small stuff or for adding a thimble to an eye splice.
Your typical "yacht knife" sized marlin spike this is used on "small stuff". Generally, it is used to splice a snapped stay back together rather than rigging a whole new stay. Splicing a snapped stay is a lot easier than re-rigging a stay to the mast head.
A fid is ::::
a piece of wood used when stepping masts on old sailing ships
OR
a marlin spike made out of wood.
When splicing mooring lines and towing hawsers, VERY LARGE marlin spikes are used, some as long as 3 or 4 feet long and take 3 to 5 men to handle them, as when doing this there are at least 2 large spikes in use at the same time. In 20 years, I only got to observe splicing a thimble into a towing hawser 1 time. It took 10 men all day and that was with a day of preparation before that.
For "lines", the spike is usually about 12" to 18" long and 1/2" or more in diameter. The spikes we used on hawsers are 3 or 4 FEET long and it would take 4 or 5 men to splice one. Fortunately, splicing a hawser was never a frequent task.
Oh, and "rope"?? As is typical in the Navy, there are 2 definitions - "rope" can mean "any rope like material, whether fiber or metal" and it's also specifically the term used for metal wires, e.g., "wire rope". Hydraulicly operated ram tensioner cables, unrep cables, elevator cables, derrick cables, etc.
But "Wait!!!!" Why do you call all the "wire rope" a cable?"
No clue, but a guess is that in all these wire rope applications, the wire ropes in question are VERY long and a cable is a nautical measurement equal to 219 yards or 657 feet.
In the maritime community, "ropes" fall into 4 categories. Small stuff, lines and hawsers. And "rope".
Small stuff is anything less than 1" in diameter. We're usually talking string on up to 1/2" or 3/4", but the BM3&2 definition is "under 1" diameter".
Hawsers are anything with a diameter of over 4".
Lines are everything in between,
A naval quirk is that small stuff and hawsers are referred to by their diameter, while lines are most often called by their circumference. Hence the terms "towing hawser" and "mooring lines".
A 6" towing hawser is 6 inches in diameter, while a 6" mooring line is about 2" in diameter.
A marlin spike is also used as an assisting tool when splicing hawsers, line or small stuff. You use it to pry apart the individual lays in the line so that you can weave the lay ends into the main body of the line. The splicing may be for joining the ends of two segments of line/small stuff or for adding a thimble to an eye splice.
Your typical "yacht knife" sized marlin spike this is used on "small stuff". Generally, it is used to splice a snapped stay back together rather than rigging a whole new stay. Splicing a snapped stay is a lot easier than re-rigging a stay to the mast head.
A fid is ::::
a piece of wood used when stepping masts on old sailing ships
OR
a marlin spike made out of wood.
When splicing mooring lines and towing hawsers, VERY LARGE marlin spikes are used, some as long as 3 or 4 feet long and take 3 to 5 men to handle them, as when doing this there are at least 2 large spikes in use at the same time. In 20 years, I only got to observe splicing a thimble into a towing hawser 1 time. It took 10 men all day and that was with a day of preparation before that.
For "lines", the spike is usually about 12" to 18" long and 1/2" or more in diameter. The spikes we used on hawsers are 3 or 4 FEET long and it would take 4 or 5 men to splice one. Fortunately, splicing a hawser was never a frequent task.
Oh, and "rope"?? As is typical in the Navy, there are 2 definitions - "rope" can mean "any rope like material, whether fiber or metal" and it's also specifically the term used for metal wires, e.g., "wire rope". Hydraulicly operated ram tensioner cables, unrep cables, elevator cables, derrick cables, etc.
But "Wait!!!!" Why do you call all the "wire rope" a cable?"
No clue, but a guess is that in all these wire rope applications, the wire ropes in question are VERY long and a cable is a nautical measurement equal to 219 yards or 657 feet.
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 7:29 pm
Thank you, sir!zzyzzogeton wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:58 pm Apropos of nothing, since someone mentioned "line" and "rope" in a thread about a rope knife....
In the maritime community, "ropes" fall into 4 categories. Small stuff, lines and hawsers. And "rope".
Small stuff is anything less than 1" in diameter. We're usually talking string on up to 1/2" or 3/4", but the BM3&2 definition is "under 1" diameter".
Hawsers are anything with a diameter of over 4".
Lines are everything in between,
A naval quirk is that small stuff and hawsers are referred to by their diameter, while lines are most often called by their circumference. Hence the terms "towing hawser" and "mooring lines".
A 6" towing hawser is 6 inches in diameter, while a 6" mooring line is about 2" in diameter.
A marlin spike is also used as an assisting tool when splicing hawsers, line or small stuff. You use it to pry apart the individual lays in the line so that you can weave the lay ends into the main body of the line. The splicing may be for joining the ends of two segments of line/small stuff or for adding a thimble to an eye splice.
Your typical "yacht knife" sized marlin spike this is used on "small stuff". Generally, it is used to splice a snapped stay back together rather than rigging a whole new stay. Splicing a snapped stay is a lot easier than re-rigging a stay to the mast head.
A fid is ::::
a piece of wood used when stepping masts on old sailing ships
OR
a marlin spike made out of wood.
When splicing mooring lines and towing hawsers, VERY LARGE marlin spikes are used, some as long as 3 or 4 feet long and take 3 to 5 men to handle them, as when doing this there are at least 2 large spikes in use at the same time. In 20 years, I only got to observe splicing a thimble into a towing hawser 1 time. It took 10 men all day and that was with a day of preparation before that.
For "lines", the spike is usually about 12" to 18" long and 1/2" or more in diameter. The spikes we used on hawsers are 3 or 4 FEET long and it would take 4 or 5 men to splice one. Fortunately, splicing a hawser was never a frequent task.
Oh, and "rope"?? As is typical in the Navy, there are 2 definitions - "rope" can mean "any rope like material, whether fiber or metal" and it's also specifically the term used for metal wires, e.g., "wire rope". Hydraulicly operated ram tensioner cables, unrep cables, elevator cables, derrick cables, etc.
But "Wait!!!!" Why do you call all the "wire rope" a cable?"
No clue, but a guess is that in all these wire rope applications, the wire ropes in question are VERY long and a cable is a nautical measurement equal to 219 yards or 657 feet.
Ray
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 9:04 pm
I’ve also heard the story about them chopping through lines with a belaying pin on the rail. I also had my doubts. But I can see it happening in an emergency.
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 10:26 pm
ZZYZZ, Thank you for my education. When I posted what I had heard the sailors knifes function were, I never knew how little I knew. Now if I can only remember it longer than it takes to drink a cup of coffee. Living and working at the Continental divide in Colorado most of my career, I am about as far from sailing ships as a man can get. Knives are just tools for us. Often these forums ask about a person's first knife. What was it or do you still have it, type question. Again, OMG I have lost or broken at least 50 over my career. I am still puzzled though when I ask a friend to use his knife, but he refuses to lend it to me. While I genuinely and respectfully appreciate everyone's opinions, sometimes I have to disagree. Modern slip joint wrote that if ever I had to sand and refinish a ships railing because I batoned my blade through a rope, I somehow think that is not a big a deal in the past as it is in the present. Considering often other ships were shooting large cannons at your ship. One person wrote that he was unaware that it was a blade shape for sailing folks. I always thought it as such with the abundance of the large wooden scaled, blunt tipped Coast Guard knives on the surplus market. To show my further ignorance, my career was heavy construction and we used "cable" as it was called by the miles. It was hard to refer to it as wire rope which is its actual name. Now I find out that "cable" is a measurement not an item. Next you are going to tell me the Easter Bunny doesn't actually lay Easter eggs.
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 11:36 pm
ZZ's explanation and narrative is about as professional as you can get. 
The only type of line he didn't explain about was the "chow line" and how long or short it can be, depending on rank and time of day. 
The only type of line he didn't explain about was the "chow line" and how long or short it can be, depending on rank and time of day. Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 2:51 am
For the record, I was never in the military so I never researhed how the navy defined words or their somtimes specialized vocabulary. I'd guess the majority of sailors have never had to think about how they'd do things if "large cannons" were being fired at them.
Todays big news story is an enormous container ship smashed down an important bridge in Baltimore after losing power to its screws. (propellers if you're not a sailor) The ship I worked on caused a short lived panic in Elliot Bay in front of Seattle when we lost power leaving the mouth of the Dawamish River. It was anchors away, hoist day shapes and blast the horn sequence for not under command. Ferries made hard turns while a tug boat corraled the logs it planned to tow into the Duwamish. A vessel not under command has right of way over all others. Repairs were completed before we weighed anchor and it ended with no harm done.
Also for the record, the blade I use most often in my large stockmans, congresses and camp/utility knife is their sheep's foot so I can understand wanting a single sheep's foot blade to get a more compact knife or quick one hand opening. It does not have to be for rope.
Todays big news story is an enormous container ship smashed down an important bridge in Baltimore after losing power to its screws. (propellers if you're not a sailor) The ship I worked on caused a short lived panic in Elliot Bay in front of Seattle when we lost power leaving the mouth of the Dawamish River. It was anchors away, hoist day shapes and blast the horn sequence for not under command. Ferries made hard turns while a tug boat corraled the logs it planned to tow into the Duwamish. A vessel not under command has right of way over all others. Repairs were completed before we weighed anchor and it ended with no harm done.
Also for the record, the blade I use most often in my large stockmans, congresses and camp/utility knife is their sheep's foot so I can understand wanting a single sheep's foot blade to get a more compact knife or quick one hand opening. It does not have to be for rope.
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 3:48 am
Wow you guys offered up a fantastic education tonight! I could see where the sheep foot blade shape would be more a personal safety feature than a knife fight preventative. If you were to loose grip on it in rough seas or through wet hands you'd be less likely to accidentally stab yourself by falling on it or leaning against something with the knife between you and the object. Or attempting to catch a falling knife and then stabbing yourself through the thigh like I recently saw someone do . Not to mention the pinchable aspect and being less likely to stab through an inflatable. Those are all just guesses though as I've never seriously researched it myself or been on ships as others here have. I do know those big 'ol sheepfoot navy knives were produced in very large numbers in the late 1800's to early 1900's. Also just learned about a marlinspike hitch, something else I never knew about!
Eric
. Not to mention the pinchable aspect and being less likely to stab through an inflatable. Those are all just guesses though as I've never seriously researched it myself or been on ships as others here have. I do know those big 'ol sheepfoot navy knives were produced in very large numbers in the late 1800's to early 1900's. Also just learned about a marlinspike hitch, something else I never knew about! Eric
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 2:02 am
"Short" and "Long" chow lines are subjective descriptions.
Take an aircraft carrier - Is the air wing on board or not? Without, the crew is about 3000. With, more like 5000+. Percentage-wise, when an air wing checks on board, the officer's mess more than triples. The enlisted mess just doubles. When the air wing is aboard, the messes, enlisted (2), officers (2) and CPOs (1), serve about 22 hours a day.
Now shift to a small boy - a destroyer. About 20 officers and 320 crew, if at full complement. The messes are open for about 1-1/2 hour each, over the watch overlap period. Relatively, the lines are never long. The only reason the messes are open as long as they are is to accommodate the ongoing watches and off-going watches so no one has to eat like a starving maniac.
Ships between those two extremes have a variety of chow halls/times/lines.
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 12:17 pm
Most excellent definition ZZ. We both know how it works from big to small.
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2024 12:32 am
Admiralty law "back in tbe day" of wooden ships and iron men stated that sailors were forbidden to have a knife with a pointed blade. If a man was found to have a knife with a pointed blade, the ship's Master at Arms would break the point off the blade. Perhaps from fear of mutinous mayhem or fights between shipmates.
No idea when that law was rescinded. I have a WWII Coast Guard issued "rope knife" like the one posted. I also have a Miller Bro's rope knife and the spine of the blade is pretty wide and the blade is beefy. The Camillus is shaped similar, but nowhere near as brawny as the MB.
In the early 70's as a sailor, we had knives with points (TL-29's) issued to us.
No idea when that law was rescinded. I have a WWII Coast Guard issued "rope knife" like the one posted. I also have a Miller Bro's rope knife and the spine of the blade is pretty wide and the blade is beefy. The Camillus is shaped similar, but nowhere near as brawny as the MB.
In the early 70's as a sailor, we had knives with points (TL-29's) issued to us.
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2024 2:01 am
I have a Wostenholm Canadian Army knife that was made in 1917. However, the blade has been shortened and rounded (originally, these had spear-point blades). The blade doesn't look to have been broken--looks like the tip was blunted on purpose. It seems that the smaller pattern that originated in the '30s was when the sheepsfoot became standard on the British Army/Navy pattern.Owd Wullie wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 12:32 am Admiralty law "back in tbe day" of wooden ships and iron men stated that sailors were forbidden to have a knife with a pointed blade. If a man was found to have a knife with a pointed blade, the ship's Master at Arms would break the point off the blade. Perhaps from fear of mutinous mayhem or fights between shipmates.
No idea when that law was rescinded. I have a WWII Coast Guard issued "rope knife" like the one posted. I also have a Miller Bro's rope knife and the spine of the blade is pretty wide and the blade is beefy. The Camillus is shaped similar, but nowhere near as brawny as the MB.
In the early 70's as a sailor, we had knives with points (TL-29's) issued to us.
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2024 6:14 pm
At any point on this knife blade you may choose to cut rope the blade has enough backbone to handle the force even to the very end..not so with any of the tapered blade patterns.
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 2:27 pm
I wasn't in the Navy and don't their ways and methods with rope/lines. I've been a sailor for nearly my entire adult life, I'm 77. In the sailing world a "Marlinspike" is used on the boat's lines in many situations, one of which is to "whip" the dead, or bitter end of a line after it has been cut for any reason, simply to prevent fraying. (Modern, synthetic lines can be heat sealed but not on deck during use.) The strong, small diameter line used to do this is called "marlin". The marlin line is pushed between the rope strands using the spike and wrapped around the larger line. Then a couple turns are taken on the spike to get a "purchase" for pulling the wraps tight to the line being whipped. Some folks say the spike is for untying knots. Well maybe, but the spike on a yachtsman's knife isn't very big and it's point would be dangerous trying to undo a knot in a larger line, just no leverage. The spike is more useful in splicing, to separate the rope strands.
I first learned basic rope lore as a Boy Scout and then for sailing. I'm sure various professions that deal with rope have their own ways of using the spike. It's a very handy tool. Just my penny's worth here. J.O'.
I first learned basic rope lore as a Boy Scout and then for sailing. I'm sure various professions that deal with rope have their own ways of using the spike. It's a very handy tool. Just my penny's worth here. J.O'.
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 3:46 pm
Here are some rope-splicing fids. I'm not familiar with a mast stepping fid, but I'm learning J.O'.
Re: What reason for rope blade shape?
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:07 pm
In a British publication called "British Tars"(britishtars.com), there is an article on sailors' knives. In it the author states, "The oft-repeated story that, upon entering a ship, the sailor was forced to snap the point off his knife is probably apocryphal". It also describes the common sailor's knife as a folding clasp knife with a point, a "fashionable accessory" to be displayed proudly and publicly. I also tried researching 18th century Admiralty Law and found nothing about sailors' knives. Admiralty Law deals with international maritime activity, commerce, piracy, salvage, crimes, etc. I didn't see anything about shipboard rules. That was probably a matter left to a ship's captain.
Without hard evidence to say why some sailors' knives are blunt-ended it remains a question for discussion. I lean toward the idea that a sailor, working on a slippery deck, in rough seas, was more likely to be injured, or break a point off, where a blunt end is stronger and less likely to snap. Sailors' work involves more cutting than stabbing and sharpness overrules a pointed tip. JMHO, Interesting. J.O'.
Without hard evidence to say why some sailors' knives are blunt-ended it remains a question for discussion. I lean toward the idea that a sailor, working on a slippery deck, in rough seas, was more likely to be injured, or break a point off, where a blunt end is stronger and less likely to snap. Sailors' work involves more cutting than stabbing and sharpness overrules a pointed tip. JMHO, Interesting. J.O'.