Damn celluloid

[edge213]

It looks like cell to me.

[Theo]

I know it doesn't help Vits, and the loss of his beautiful knives, i have been reading more and more on the celluloid , must say confusing as all get out. Anyhow here is a link , i thought i seen it posted here before https://www.oregonknifeclub.org/celluloid_02.html

[Vit_213]

I know it doesn't help Vits, and the loss of his beautiful knives, i have been reading more and more on the celluloid , must say confusing as all get out. Anyhow here is a link , i thought i seen it posted here before https://www.oregonknifeclub.org/celluloid_02.html

Thanks Theo. This article was published in 1999 and is still relevant in 2023. I am very sad that it was not read in Camillus before the release of the Celluloid Abalone Handled Series in 2000. The same goes for Queen, who made premium knives with celluloid handles until 2003.

[eveled]

Inexplicably there are some that still use it?

[enuf]

Certainly, should not keep one in the Gun Safe then! - right?

[enuf]

I don't think this is Celluloid, but just checking. It is an Imperial. What say you?

[Mumbleypeg]

Celluloid.

Ken

[edgy46]

In my accumulation of over two hundred shell handled Imperials not one has ever gassed out.
I have a few old regular construction Imperials with cell handles, and none show any sign of outgassing.

[enuf]

Celluloid.

Ken

Oh boy. I better get it off by itself somewhere!!

[enuf]

In my accumulation of over two hundred shell handled Imperials not one has ever gassed out.
I have a few old regular construction Imperials with cell handles, and none show any sign of outgassing.

This one doesn't look like it is doing anything bad - but now I am scared of it.

[Mumbleypeg]

No need to be scared of it. Just treat it like what it is. Don’t store it with any other metal objects. It may last another 100+ years, or it may self destruct starting tomorrow. Just knowing what it is and how to best deal with it is the key.

If for some reason you can’t deal with that reality, sell it. Or send it to me!

Ken

[enuf]

I'm guessing these three are cell also...

first picture - the top one.

[just bob]

This thread offers some differing opinions by other collectors. I don't think there is one hard and fast rule that applies to all celluloid. I have my Dad's Case knives with celluloid tortoise shell handles that have been in a safe since Y2K that have shown no signs of ever outgassing. I'll get them out and post pictures in a bit. Air does not circulate around them. I think it is much more of a question of the material used to create the celluloid in question and also the proper processing of the celluloid material. I'll borrow from old Abe and say, " not all celluloid is created equally." Many of the comments in these threads echo those same thoughts.

viewtopic.php?t=50941

These are some knives I dug out. I thought they wert tortoise shell but the only one of those I can find is the Case Classic. The others are Christmas Tree. They are stored in their original carrier and not spread out. The same is true of the Case Classic. The only thing I have in the safe is sidewalk chalk in an old onion bag to absorb moisture. I read that somewhere and it seems to work. The safe is in the garage and it is unheated. It is subject to the same atmospheric conditions as the Indiana weather. It is way cold out there right now. Ice melts from the car and puddles on the floor. It is also hot out there in the summer. There are many other knives in the safe stored in knife folders. I check them periodically and none of them have ever shown any signs of breaking down. The other thing I'll add is the candy stripe cell. Along about 2010 or so one of the knife supply companies shut down and a friend of mine bought a lot of cell material. I bought some from him. I had the candy stripe, German Eye yellow, and some waterfall. I let another person talk me out of the German Eye yellow and that was a mistake on my part. It was beautiful and easy to work. The waterfall was a total disaster. Within a few weeks it started to break down. It warped and buckled, turned yellow and green, and stunk so bad that Lume' deodorant wouldn't have set it right. I did a knife or two with that material and they also turned in no time. I put it in with plastic and took it to the recycle bin and got rid of it. The candy stripe has been in my garage for more than 10 years stored under a bunch of junk. It is not laid out so air can move around it. It is just as good as it was the day I bought it. My experience is that I would never buy a modern knife with modern waterfall handle material unless it was a restoration project. You can go to Google and search the images for knives with waterfall handles and see the results for yourself.

[edge213]

I'm guessing these three are cell also...

first picture - the top one.

First pic bottom knife looks to be bone.

[enuf]

so the other two in the first picture of the three are evil?

[Dinadan]

I don't think this is Celluloid, but just checking. It is an Imperial. What say you?

Celluloid.

Ken

I have a question here. Enuf's knife is a shell handle. I know, or perhaps think, that the cover on shell handled knives is some kind of plastic. I have never read that the covers on shell handles are celluloid. Is it celluloid? I have never seen a shell handled knife with signs of outgassing.

Vit_213, I have a few knives that are outgassing. It does seem to me that the newer Bulldogs, Fight'n Roosters, and Winchesters are worse than the old knives. Maybe the really old ones that were going to outgas dissolved before I ever saw them.

[Mumbleypeg]

Celluloid was the “plastic” used on many shell handled knives. I’ve seen its use on shell handles referred to as a “celluloid wrap”. That’s the “plastic” that was available at the time. They don’t typically out gas as do other celluloids. The celluloid is very thin.

Some shell handles also used paint.

Ken

[Vit_213]

Maybe the really old ones that were going to outgas dissolved before I ever saw them.

This thought has occurred to me many times.
I have several old knives with celluloid handles in excellent condition, but I've seen pictures of similar models that look like they came out of a fireplace.

[enuf]

which one you calling the "shell handle"

[Mumbleypeg]

FWIW I too have pondered over the seeming propensity of recent knives from Bullldog, Fight’n Rooster, Case Classics etc to outgas seemingly more than older knives. I don’t know of any scientific studies, but it could be we notice those more recent ones because most of them have been out away in our collections. Whereas so many of the older ones never survived long enough for anyone to see them outgas. I read somewhere the typical life span of a pocket knife 70+ years ago was 3 to 5 years. Which makes sense to me.

BTW this thread is but one of the many here about celluloid. Here’s one with an interesting hypotheses. viewtopic.php?t=80679

Ken

[Vit_213]

I have studied many articles on this topic and none of them give an exact answer as to why this happens and how to prevent it. For myself, I concluded that knives 20-40 years old are more dangerous than 50+ years old. Now my dangerous and potentially dangerous knives are in a box with a transparent lid and are subject to regular inspection and ventilation.
P.S. The knives from the starting message have been carefully restored, but unfortunately the traces of corrosion are slightly noticeable.

[edge213]

so the other two in the first picture of the three are evil?

The top one is celluloid, the second one is celluloid wrapped shell construction.
Not evil, you just have to keep an eye on them. If they "misbehave" you can have them rehandled.
I have hundreds of celluloid handled knives. Some are over 100 years old and are in great shape.
You must know what you are looking at so you don't pay to much for one.
Ps. Anyone wanting to get rid of their celluloid you can send them to me

[edge213]

which one you calling the "shell handle"

The first picture is shell construction.

[enuf]

thank you

[Rookie]

Regarding the Winchester's from the 80's and 90's, it was known that the material was likely to outgas overtime. My grandfather worked at the Queen factory at that time, and they warned the customer that the material was known to become unstable. But they were told to replicate the look of older knife handles, and if celluloid was the only way to get that look (gold flake, candy stripe, etc.) then use it anyways. The knives would last at least 20 years before signs of problems, so what's the big deal.

The customer's always right, if they are paying the bills.