Ceramic Stone Tests KME, Norton, and Spyderco

[pitonyak]

I wanted to test a few Ceramic sharpening stones, but I am sadly missing a few from my collection. The knife I am using began as completely dull, it could not even almost cut paper. There was a hump at the base of the blade that I had to remove. In the middle of the primary cutting edge there was a very serious dip. One side looked like it had been nicked on a grinder (or similar). In other words, I needed to re-profile the blade a bit.

So with these stones, I did a free hand sharpening at 12 degrees as best I could. This was very close to the existing angle on the blade.

First up, I decided to use the KME “Super-Tuff” Ceramic Stones. These stones are inexpensive (about $20) and they use Aluminum Oxide. The coarse stone is about 120 grit and is very aggressive. It made pretty fast work and left a serviceable edge on this old knife. This first image shows with most of the dip removed. I have seen almost no reviews of these stones. They are very inexpensive, so I gave it a try.

This is the edge after the Coarse stone. KMEAO62C

https://www.kmesharp.com/kmealcestco.html
https://www.knifecenter.com/item/KMEAO6 ... ooden-case

The Medium / Fine stone is about 320 grit.
https://www.knifecenter.com/item/KMEAO6 ... ooden-case

This is the edge after using the medium / fine stone. This did a great job and the knife is able to cut news print, not great, but OK.

I originally planned on using Spyderco bench stones but I realized that I only have an Ultra-Fine Spyderco stone so I then moved to the Norton Ascent Ceramic stones. Norton Ascent stones are made from ultra-fine exceptionally pure aluminum oxide (Ceramic Alumina). Norton claims that these will work with all sorts of metals, are very hard, wear resistant, and will not dish. These are machined flat and are generally much flatter (and claimed better) than the Spyderco stones (which had a reputation for being out of flat and then really hard to make them flat).

Norton claims “their ability to handle super hard alloys. Hone exotic steel knives to razor sharpness quickly and efficiently.” This feels odd since Aluminum Oxide cannot cut the carbides, but it will surely cut whatever is holding the carbides. That said, my experience is that I am able to refine an edge very nicely with these stones. I use these stones dry while chip carving. I often use water or a honing solution that I use with Diamond stones with these (but usually just water if not dry).

The Fine stone is roughly equivalent to a 4K water stone and the Ultra-Fine stone is similar to an 8K waterstone.

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Nort ... 68C25.aspx
https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Nort ... 81C25.aspx
https://www.nortonabrasives.com/sga-com ... y-7437.pdf

Norton claims you can use these stones dry: Norton Ascent Ceramic Stones do not require any oil or water when sharpening. No preparation or cleanup is required. Some people disagree and still suggest using with oil. Their catalog says: “These smooth finished stones are best used dry or with a very small amount of water”.

Then they state:

Like any stone, the Ascent ceramic bench stones will load up with use, so it is important to properly clean your stones on a regular basis to remove the embedded steel. Cleaning is easy – we recommend using a small drop of Norton Sharpening Stone Oil with an abrasive scrubbing pad, or alternatively you can use abrasive cleanser instead of oil. Rinse with water and dry the stones to store.

The cleaning instructions are similar to those stated by Spyderco with their ceramic stones.

In the Norton use video, they use first rub on some water, dish washing fluid, then a Bear-Tex pad. Based on the color I assume that it is the 614 Black Non-Woven Perforated Hand Pad as opposed to the (NOR-58002 / UPC 66261063500 400 to 600 grit) 635 Gray Non-Woven Hand Pad. Both use a Silicon Carbide abrasive. I cannot find the 614, but the scotch-brite 7448 might substitute at 800 grit or 7445 white at 1000 grit.

So, how fine are these ceramic stones? I believe that the following is true:

Spyderco Medium 16 micron, Spyderco Fine 6 micron, Spderco Ultra-Fine about 3 micron. I show the Norton Ascent Fine to be about 3 micron and the Norton Ascent Ultra-Fine about 1.2 microns.

This means that I have two ceramic stones that should be about 3 microns and I would like something in between. The best solution that I have is to flip my Spyderco Sharpmaker upside down and use the two rods as a bench stone substitute. Not happy with it, but, it works.

This is a picture of my Sharkmaker with the two medium rods. Note the blue thing, this is a 12 degree angle that I use as a reference. I highly recommend these

https://www.amazon.com/Wedgek-Angle-Gui ... B01N4QMO7U

After using the Spyderco Medium stone, the edge is starting to refine nicely. The blade finally feels almost satisfyingly sharp. Note that we are still free hand.

Now the Spyderco Fine stone. This is as far as I usually go with a knife and yes, it is sharp. Again, I do not have a Fine bench stone so I used the Spyderco as my bench stone. Yeah, this is sharp.

I do own a Spyderco Ultra Fine for both my Sharpmaker and as a bench stone, but, I will switch to the Norton Ascent Fine, which is supposed to be similar to the Spyderco UF stone.

And finally on to the Norton Ascent Ultra Fine stone, which has left a really fine edge on this knife.

[C-WADE7]

Nice progression on the reprofile and good looking finished edge. I have a set of DMT plates and usually use them dry, what honing solution do you use on your diamond hones? Do you strop as a final step on pocket knives or only on carving tools?

[pitonyak]

Nice progression on the reprofile and good looking finished edge. I have a set of DMT plates and usually use them dry, what honing solution do you use on your diamond hones? Do you strop as a final step on pocket knives or only on carving tools?

On my diamond stones I usually use Smith's Honing Solution (although I have notes that refer to it as Sharpening Solution). Why? Smith's is a mixture of emollients, lubricants, cleaners and a mild corrosion inhibitor. Features built-in stone cleaning agents and rust/corrosion inhibitors. Excellent for lubricating your Arkansas or Diamond Stone when sharpening. Non-petroleum based with built-in stone cleaning agents and rust/corrosion inhibitors. I like this for diamond stones. I like the rust/corrosion inhibitors so I usually use it for my Diamonds because the plates sometime rust (or the metal shavings might rust). My only complaint about Smith's is that I have not seen it for sale in a container larger than 4oz. I see this currently for sale in four different bottle labels and they all are part # HON1 and they all claim to contain the extra stuff that I want for my diamonds.

Sometimes on my Diamond Stones I use Gatco Honing Oil. Although I like the oil, I will not replace it because I do not know off hand if it also contains the rust inhibitors that is in Smiths. I am pretty sure that it does not because the packaging make a statement about meeting some standard for fuel safety (that I did not look up so I will not assume it is food safe without further investigation), but it is blue. I was told to NOT use oil on diamond stones, but, Gatco's diamond stones either do, or did, come with Gatco honing oil and I have not had a problem when I used it as such.

Another one I would suggest is Trend, but that stuff is crazy expensive.

For me testing done for this post, I used water in a spray bottle with a very very very small amount of Dawn (like a drop or two).

On my Arkansas stones I usually use Dan's, that claims to be a light mineral oil, but some people claim it is Kerosene. The oil is very light. I looked at the MSDS, but frankly I have no ability to read it. This oil leaves a distinctive odor, so I always assumed that there is something in there I just do not know what it is.

On my Norton oil stones (not Arkansas, think India and Silicon Carbide) I use the Norton honing oil, which is food safe and a very light mineral oil. Sometimes I just use food safe mineral oil but that is not as safe because because it is usually less refined and more likely to evaporate out the water and leave a mess. But I have not found anyone who will actually claim to have experienced this problem. I have not in the 20 years I have been using the kitchen mineral oil that I purchase by the gallon.

I do have some old Buck honing oil and I was told that this used to be Automatic Transmission Fluid, no idea if that is true. I think this is no longer available. I have Case honing oil, I forget what I thought of it, nothing bad.

I have Lansky Nathan's Natural Honing Oil, which I was told has nothing added, but it smells like Dan's honing oil.

Bunch of old timers told me to mix 50% mineral oil with 50% Kleensheet odorless Kerosene; I have never tried that, but if you have, I am interested.

[pitonyak]

It occurs to me that you asked if I strop. Brings a few things to mind...

Under normal circumstances I do not bother to strop. I usually stop after a high grit stone. My usual method is to just use my Spyderco thing and I have up to an Ultra-Fine stone which is very fine.

When I am chip carving, I strop often and/or use my Norton UF stone, which is rather fine.

With my woodworking equipment, I might put it on a Shapton 30,000 stone, which 0.49 Micron, but I usually stop at 16,000. I do not usually strop.

With my Pocket knives I usually stop after my Spyderco Sharpmaker and things are very sharp. I will sometimes strop, but not usually because my knives feel sharp enough for what I do. That said, if I use one of my Worksharp belt type sharpeners, my final step is to use a very fine worn-out belt loaded with honing compound. My preferred honing compound is Formax Micro Fine Honing Compound, but it seems to be rather expensive at the moment. My notes claim this is roughly 0.5 microns. That said, I also have diamond sprays of different sizes that I can use to strop and I also have diamond paste, just never got around to trying them.

I can get a knife insane sharp with a belt sharpener and stropping compound, which brings up this gem.

David Weaver (if that name rings a bell) found that he could go directly from a Washita to a power strop and get great results. I think he called it the unicorn method. He posted about it in some forums (WoodCentral Hand Tools) and eventually published it in Popular Woodworking. The gist of the method is to selectively buff just the tip on an abrasive loaded buffing wheel for a few seconds forming a tiny convex bevel. The result is very sharp and resistant to dulling.

David's Unicorn method sounds very similar to what I have been doing with my knives when I do strop. If nothing else, this allows me to get that edge very fast if I am already using my belt sharpener.

[C-WADE7]

I’ve seen the strop diamond emulsion drips but never buy them. I use Flexcut Gold on leather or cereal box cardboard wood block.
I’m no expert and not efficient enough to need more than a hard Arkansas for the most part and strop. I would love to see some of your chip carvings, I’m a whittler my self. There is a forum here and a thread with a lot of my work posted. I’ve seen the unicorn method video just never perused it much, may need to revisit it.

[pitonyak]

I’ve seen the strop diamond emulsion drips but never buy them. I use Flexcut Gold on leather or cereal box cardboard wood block.
I’m no expert and not efficient enough to need more than a hard Arkansas for the most part and strop. I would love to see some of your chip carvings, I’m a whittler my self. There is a forum here and a thread with a lot of my work posted. I’ve seen the unicorn method video just never perused it much, may need to revisit it.

I heard about people stropping on cereal box cardboard so I have a box in the basement to test with (tests not yet performed).

I exchanged email with the Matt Shimek at at FlexCut about their stropping compound in 2011. Their response was interesting.

Regarding the size of the abrasive used in our compounds, I believe the first and most important aspect of the request, while not unusual, needs to be addressed on subjects other than the grit size of any particular abrasive. As an example:
1. The hardness of the abrasive to a large extent determines its effectiveness. Diamonds as an example come in micron sizes the same as many other abrasives and of course you are aware of why a diamond’s hardness works better that most other abrasives.
2. The porosity of the abrasive itself plays a function a part.
3. The oil absorption value of the abrasive plays an important part. Some abrasives will soak up or absorb twice the oils or greases as other abrasives.
4. The melting point of the binders used in making compound is extremely important and that’s a whole subject in its own right.
5. The ratio of the abrasives to the ratio of binders used in making a compound plays a functional part. There isn’t any strict formula that can be used because of the great difference between the abrasives and the binders.
6. Many compounds have more that one abrasive. And the ratio of one abrasive to another abrasive in the same formulation plays an important part.
Just to give you some condensed versions of your request, I’ll make the following remarks.
When we purchase the abrasives for our products, they are not graded by grit, but rather by mesh size or screen size.
The Yellow Stropping Compound contains abrasives, with the largest mesh size being listed as (-300). That’s a trade determination that simply says nothing in the abrasive is coarser than 300 grit.
However, that same specification would see fines in that same abrasive going all the way down to 0.6 micron.
I hope this letter is of some help to answering your questions.


As for the Chip Carving. I do not do it often, but, I use chip carving to label the boxes that I make to hold my sharpening stones. I do not do it often, and I am not very good at it, but I enjoy it when I have the time.

[C-WADE7]

I belong to the Wood Carving Illustrated forum also, and they swear by cardboard. With the thicker leather too much pressure will cause compression and roll the edge up. Leather works good but I controll the pressure more, where as cereal box doesn’t compress causing that issue.

[pitonyak]

I belong to the Wood Carving Illustrated forum also, and they swear by cardboard. With the thicker leather too much pressure will cause compression and roll the edge up. Leather works good but I controll the pressure more, where as cereal box doesn’t compress causing that issue.

That is a sufficient recommendation for me (on the cardboard). I will give that a try before Monday on something.

My intention is to give carving a try and I even have a few things to try to get started.

[Mr. Chips]

I have been whittlin', woodcarving, teaching and of course, sharpening for 70 years.

I have found that if you want to cut wood with your knife or gouge, there is absolutely no need to get into stones with grits in the thousands.

If your hobby is getting knives absurdly sharp, that is another thing entirely. Those that do, do not usually actually cut wood with those edges, because that would cause that insanely sharp edge to disappear instantly.

I sharpen on an india stone, at 10 degrees, making sure to form a burr going both ways. (The burr or wire edge is absolutely essential because it is the indicator that the edge has been reached. It is not possible to get a knife really sharp without it.) I often go straight to the strop from there, but sometimes use a translucent hard white Arkansas, or a Spiderco white ceramic to finish up until I can't feel the burr.

I then strop on a denim strop dressed with Rick's White Lightnin' stropping paste. (Not a stick. No wax. I am the only source for this product.) The strop is just a piece of denim stuck down on a board with double sided carpet tape. Lasts a LOT longer than cereal box strops and does not roll the edge. I use a lot of pressure while stropping being absolutely fanatical about maintaining the ten degree angle, with NO FLIP AT THE END OF THE STROKE. I never go back and forth on the strop, flipping the blade at the end of the strokes, because when that is done the flip will be anticipated, and the angle will come up and the edge will be rubbed off on the strop. I have seen this done many times. It is the reason for a LOT of dull knives. DO NOT FLIP! When the fine edge is lost a few proper strokes on the strop will bring it back.

I have yet to see edges that cut better than what is produced by this system.
People are forever asking "what grit is that?", re stones and the stropping paste. The answer is "adequate."

If you can't shave with it, you can't carve with it.

[pitonyak]

Rick,

A very quick post until I can get back onto my Linux computer where I have more access to things.

I have been trying to figure out how to purchase your honing compound and I was never able to figure it out.

I did, however, just sent an email to what I think is your email address. I am resorting to that because I was not able to find a website where you sell it.

I will try not to forget and go to sleep, but my computer is tied up and won't be available for a bit.

I do not disagree with anything you posted.

I had not been aware of exactly how fine the Norton Stones were, when I sharpen my pocket knives, I might get them crazy sharp when I'm using a belt system just because it's faster than stropping.

When I use my Spyderco, I don't even bother with the ultra fine stone because frankly I don't find I need it.

And for some nice, I'm not even sure I should go as far as fine.

By the way, I have read a few of your carving articles. I am an absolute beginner at anything carving related.

I did go through all the grits just because I wanted to compare the scratch patterns they created.

Andrew

[pitonyak]

I have been whittlin', woodcarving, teaching and of course, sharpening for 70 years.

I have read some of your articles and seen some of your posts on other forums where I am not a member. You do great work.

I have found that if you want to cut wood with your knife or gouge, there is absolutely no need to get into stones with grits in the thousands.

If your hobby is getting knives absurdly sharp, that is another thing entirely. Those that do, do not usually actually cut wood with those edges, because that would cause that insanely sharp edge to disappear instantly.

I started sharpening for standard woodworking and unless I am paring end grain I am sure that level is probably not generally needed. I often use my pocket knives to cut paper (cutting coupons) and it is much easier with a crazy sharp knife. When I cut cardboard, it is great, but that ultra-sharp edge is gone very fast.

I will claim to be self-taught in that I have not had anyone sit with me and show and correct me. I have had instruction based on advice through forums; for example, Arkansas stones were initially a problem for me because I had to really chase the burr, which I had not had to do on my Shapton glass stones.

I think that the David Weaver Unicorn method also agrees with your statements and he power strops his plane blades and chisels right off his Washita stones.

I sharpen on an india stone, at 10 degrees, making sure to form a burr going both ways. (The burr or wire edge is absolutely essential because it is the indicator that the edge has been reached. It is not possible to get a knife really sharp without it.) I often go straight to the strop from there, but sometimes use a translucent hard white Arkansas, or a Spyderco white ceramic to finish up until I can't feel the burr.

I have had one class in chip carving that I took with my wife at Woodcraft some years back. When I took the class I purchased a couple of chip carving knives and a Ceramic stone that is 5"x1"x1/8" that did not come in any packaging and I assume it to be a Spyderco 303F. I used that to keep my edge sharp while carving. I did not know enough to ask about stropping. I have not had a lot of luck stropping, but I was reading a book on chip carving (don’t remember which one at the moment) that did improve my stropping, but with my finer stones I was achieving good results without stropping much. Based on the book I started stropping and receiving decent results with my chip carving knives.

I then strop on a denim strop dressed with Rick's White Lightnin' stropping paste. (Not a stick. No wax. I am the only source for this product.) The strop is just a piece of denim stuck down on a board with double sided carpet tape. Lasts a LOT longer than cereal box strops and does not roll the edge. I use a lot of pressure while stropping being absolutely fanatical about maintaining the ten degree angle, with NO FLIP AT THE END OF THE STROKE. I never go back and forth on the strop, flipping the blade at the end of the strokes, because when that is done the flip will be anticipated, and the angle will come up and the edge will be rubbed off on the strop. I have seen this done many times. It is the reason for a LOT of dull knives. DO NOT FLIP! When the fine edge is lost a few proper strokes on the strop will bring it back.

I should probably print that in large letters and frame it. When I started, I was most certainly rounding the edge. With a harder base you are able to press harder, something I have not really done while stropping. I have been worried about rounding the edge.

I have yet to see edges that cut better than what is produced by this system.
People are forever asking "what grit is that?", re stones and the stropping paste. The answer is "adequate."

If you can't shave with it, you can't carve with it.

I am not a fan of the waxes, it is why I have been pondering moving to diamond sprays. I have a bottle of heavy concentrate 1 micron diamond spray sitting on my desk, I just never had time to play with it.

I had read about your white lightning, but was unable to figure out how to buy some at the time. I went looking again after reading your response here and was still not able to figure out how to buy some.

Andrew