Interesting listing (counterfeit Case Tested)

[Mumbleypeg]

Here’s an interesting listing for a fake Case Tested cattle knife. https://www.ebay.com/itm/115915149018?h ... R5bn2Z3SYg Seller’s listing says it’s from an estate sale in Kentucky. This is what happens when a collector buys a fake, passes on with it in their collection, and the heirs sell it. I suspect the only person in the chain of events who knows it’s a fake is the guy that made it to begin with. Now some other unsuspecting collector will buy it, and the whole mess starts all over again!

From the shape of the blades this one probably was a Kutmaster. (Note the curved spine on the spey blade). The tangs were shaved and re-stamped, a Case shield (too small for the pattern) was attached, and off it went. Another “Kentucky wonder”! Wish I had a dollar for all the fake Case knives in Kentucky and Tennessee.

Ken

[btrwtr]

Typical to see these fakes with all blades stamped. To the unsuspecting buyer this reinforces the fallacy that it is a Case knife. The new German made goldstone celluloid handles look to be outgassing which is the norm for this material.

Many of the similar fakes sold on eBay have been purchased "from estates" which I always take to be the sellers' instant disclaimer of authenticity.

[Mumbleypeg]

I agree. When I saw it I had the thought that the one thing that could save a future collector from being burnt on it was if the outgassing celluloid destroyed it.

Ken

[dundak]

Curious. Why do so many eBay fakes come out of Kentucky and Tennessee?

[Gunsil]

Ya Ken, the knife fake capital of the world, TN and KY. Dunno if you've ever been to any of the "southern" shows but when I went to the Dalton show years ago there were many fake Case knives there and all the good old stuff like NYK, Walden, etc were buffed to mint with what we in the northeast call a "smokey mountain haze" on the blades from simichrome as a final polish.

[Mumbleypeg]

I don’t know for sure why there are so many counterfeits in that area. There are certainly a lot of good honest knives there also. FWIW I have a theory. The Tennessee and Kentucky area was among the first when knife collecting began becoming popular in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Knife collecting promoters at that time, like Jim Frost and Jim Parker, were from Tennessee, Colonel Robert Mayes from Kentucky. There were others.

To take advantage of that trend and all the new “green” collectors in that area, someone (maybe more than one) went into the business of turning inexpensive knives that could be readily acquired, into more desirable (more expensive) counterfeit old knives. They could fool many if not most of those new collectors, and turn a quick profit. Most of those fakes went into collections, many in Tennessee and Kentucky.

As those collections are sold the knives re-surface for us to see. And ignorant (not derogatory - it means uneducated) collectors are buying them. Some sellers are ignorant also, but some know exactly what they are selling and don’t care. It’s all about the money. JMO. The evidence is that soon after that time the NKCDA (which became the NKCA) was formed, with one of its stated purposes being to fight counterfeits and counterfeiters.

Ken

[peanut740]

If you check the ebay sellers other items, they have a large Confederate bowie for sale.

[winst]

Here’s an interesting listing for a fake Case Tested cattle knife. https://www.ebay.com/itm/115915149018?h ... R5bn2Z3SYg Seller’s listing says it’s from an estate sale in Kentucky. This is what happens when a collector buys a fake, passes on with it in their collection, and the heirs sell it. I suspect the only person in the chain of events who knows it’s a fake is the guy that made it to begin with. Now some other unsuspecting collector will buy it, and the whole mess starts all over again!

From the shape of the blades this one probably was a Kutmaster. (Note the curved spine on the spey blade). The tangs were shaved and re-stamped, a Case shield (too small for the pattern) was attached, and off it went. Another “Kentucky wonder”! Wish I had a dollar for all the fake Case knives in Kentucky and Tennessee.

Ken
IMG_5859.jpeg

I notice that the "C" curves around and touches the top of the "A" as is typical of most all these KY....TNN modifications.

[winst]

I am one of those kENTUCKIANS that got stung by the bee of Case knife ...collecting..selling...trading..swapping..are terms that better identifies our passion. That being said, I, among other initial "collectors" have a somewhat expertees in fake identification. I, no doubt and others, in our passion to latch on to the old tested era knives soon felt the sting of being "burnt" by these well constructed "fakes' . These authentic tested knives were the gold nuggets for early "collectors" and fetched as much as $15 maybe even $25 in the early to mid 60's relative to their condition and pattern. Being shocked by the realization that we were being duped by someone that had the audacity to make a fake "CASE" was devastating to our honorable culture. It is my contention that these well constructed clones were not contrived in some redneck blacksmith shack but instead assembled in a relatively modern knife manufacturing establishment. And sad to say these are currently being produced evidently as seen by the number of new looking products seen on ebay. Thanks to AAPK's bevy of experts we can now learn how to identify these "fakes". THANKS AAPK

[pointythings]

Knife appears to have started out as a Utica Kutmaster. The humped spey blade is usually the giveaway. Case's speys have a straight spine.

[enuf]

couple of questions
1) what is the "spey blade"?
2) if they are using other brands of knives and putting the Case logo info on the blades - are they grinding off the other names or "China" and just how do they get a stamping on the blades - I guess I figured at the factory they logo work was done before the blade was assembled and most likely with quite the machine. Wouldn't they have to take the knife apart to get the logo to fit? That'd seem like more work than what it's worth to me.

Oh, and also on this one - there is the same logo on all three blades - don't they just stamp one blade?

[Mumbleypeg]

couple of questions
1) what is the "spey blade"?
2) if they are using other brands of knives and putting the Case logo info on the blades - are they grinding off the other names or "China" and just how do they get a stamping on the blades - I guess I figured at the factory they logo work was done before the blade was assembled and most likely with quite the machine. Wouldn't they have to take the knife apart to get the logo to fit? That'd seem like more work than what it's worth to me.

Oh, and also on this one - there is the same logo on all three blades - don't they just stamp one blade?

Good questions - so much to learn!

1. The spey blade has a curved shape near the end of the cutting edge, designed to slice without puncturing (it has no sharp pointed end). Typically found as one of the blades on stockman and cattle knife patterns, they were designed for “neutering” and other veterinary tasks on farm animals. Some makers etched the words “For flesh only” on spey blades. You will find similar shaped (but longer) blades on trapper patterns, designed for skinning animals. Again, slice but not puncture. See here for examples of knife blades, found here in AAPK Research https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/ca ... ed-by-case

2. Counterfeiters usually take the knife apart, to make it easier to grind off the old stamps and apply the new (fake) stamps. The process of grinding off the old stamp and buffing the tang is called “shaving” the tang. The original stamps were applied by the manufacturer before the blades are tempered/hardened. Counterfeiters use what is called a “cold stamp”, which means it was applied after hardening. There are subtle differences usually detected by a trained eye, either in the stamp itself, or the metal missing from the tang. After making the alterations they re-assemble the knife. Sometimes you can tell the knife has been apart. Sometimes close examination will reveal the blade’s tang is now narrower than its backspring - a sign the tang was “shaved”.

Depending on the manufacturer, older knives were sometimes stamped on all blades at the factory. Some counterfeiters try to fool the buyer by imitating this (or they’re so enamored if their fake stamps, they get stamp-happy). Knowing what stamps are authentic and when they were used is part of being able to detect fakes.

Counterfeiters often take a $20-$50 knife and try to make it look like a $200+ knife. Sometimes they get a knife someone re-handled simply to repair it, or just to put something different on it. The seller will misrepresent it as something it’s not. They seldom fake a newer knife, but may try to turn a newer one into an older knife, more valuable to a collector. It’s all about the money. If you’re not sure what you’re buying, don’t!!

Ken

[1OldTreeClimber]

Who in their right mind would take a $50 knife,disassemble it,shave it,stamp reassemble and polish it just to make a hundred bucks? I'm not rich but I could make a thousand dollars just going to work before I could accomplish a task like that.

[enuf]

couple of questions
1) what is the "spey blade"?
2) if they are using other brands of knives and putting the Case logo info on the blades - are they grinding off the other names or "China" and just how do they get a stamping on the blades - I guess I figured at the factory they logo work was done before the blade was assembled and most likely with quite the machine. Wouldn't they have to take the knife apart to get the logo to fit? That'd seem like more work than what it's worth to me.

Oh, and also on this one - there is the same logo on all three blades - don't they just stamp one blade?

Good questions - so much to learn!

1. The spey blade has a curved shape near the end of the cutting edge, designed to slice without puncturing (it has no sharp pointed end). Typically found as one of the blades on stockman and cattle knife patterns, they were designed for “neutering” and other veterinary tasks on farm animals. Some makers etched the words “For flesh only” on spey blades. You will find similar shaped (but longer) blades on trapper patterns, designed for skinning animals. Again, slice but not puncture. See here for examples of knife blades, found here in AAPK Research https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/ca ... ed-by-case

2. Counterfeiters usually take the knife apart, to make it easier to grind off the old stamps and apply the new (fake) stamps. The process of grinding off the old stamp and buffing the tang is called “shaving” the tang. The original stamps were applied by the manufacturer before the blades are tempered/hardened. Counterfeiters use what is called a “cold stamp”, which means it was applied after hardening. There are subtle differences usually detected by a trained eye, either in the stamp itself, or the metal missing from the tang. After making the alterations they re-assemble the knife. Sometimes you can tell the knife has been apart. Sometimes close examination will reveal the blade’s tang is now narrower than its backspring - a sign the tang was “shaved”.

Depending on the manufacturer, older knives were sometimes stamped on all blades at the factory. Some counterfeiters try to fool the buyer by imitating this (or they’re so enamored if their fake stamps, they get stamp-happy). Knowing what stamps are authentic and when they were used is part of being able to detect fakes.

Counterfeiters often take a $20-$50 knife and try to make it look like a $200+ knife. Sometimes they get a knife someone re-handled simply to repair it, or just to put something different on it. The seller will misrepresent it as something it’s not. They seldom fake a newer knife, but may try to turn a newer one into an older knife, more valuable to a collector. It’s all about the money. If you’re not sure what you’re buying, don’t!!

Ken

Thanks Ken - good info

[enuf]

Who in their right mind would take a $50 knife,disassemble it,shave it,stamp reassemble and polish it just to make a hundred bucks? I'm not rich but I could make a thousand dollars just going to work before I could accomplish a task like that.

That's what I'm talking about.

[winst]

And the "C" curving around and touching the top of the "A"....a common feature in most all these KY.....TNN fakes.

[OLDE CUTLER]

Who in their right mind would take a $50 knife,disassemble it,shave it,stamp reassemble and polish it just to make a hundred bucks? I'm not rich but I could make a thousand dollars just going to work before I could accomplish a task like that.

Someone who does it for the thrill of scamming, and wont work a regular because its beneath them. They can do all the things you mentioned in just a few minutes.