celluloid out gasing

coinshooter · Post by **coinshooter** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:53 am

Explanation of "celluloid out gasing" for a new collector. I keep getting warned about this but no one has told me what it is or what it does or where I can find some info on it. I've got a bunch. I've cleaned them, wiped them with either Inox or wd40, wrapped them individually in tissue and stored them either in their box or a cloth sack up. They are stored in air tight plastic ammo boxes. What do "peppers" or blade/bolster discoloration have to do with out gasing?

nmikash · Post by **nmikash** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:13 pm

Gassing out is the term used for the chemical breakdown of celluloid. As it does so volatile chemicals are released which can lead to corrosion (peppers, discoloration) of the knife as well as any other knives that are nearby. If you notice one of your knives has discoloration, or cracking of the handles, get it away from your other knives ASAP. To be safe it is a good idea to inspect your cell's regularly. Hope this helps.

Nick

CCBill · Post by **CCBill** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:00 pm

Here is a good example of what outgassing can do to a knife. This is a Case Classic prototype(probably a 1 of 1)...
...CCBill...

El Lobo · Post by **El Lobo** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:13 pm

Ouch!!!

It hurts to look at that...even though it is a good example of a bad thing (outgassing).

Bill

coinshooter · Post by **coinshooter** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:12 pm

Okay, now I know what it is and what it does. Which leads to additional questions -
There must be a half dozen or more named types of manufactured handle material - Delrin, Casein, composite,etc. - are these the same as celluloid? How can you tell the difference between celluloid and some thing else?
How long does it take for breakdown to begin? Is there something besides time that triggers it?
Is there anything that can be done to prevent or stop it?
And the biggest question of all, if it is so bad, why do the brand name manufacturers continue to use it?

El Lobo · Post by **El Lobo** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:24 pm

Celluloid is unlike other handle materials you've mentioned. We've had numerous discussions and opinions put forth here in the forums. Here are the two best articles I've read on the subject.....

http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/celluloid_02.html

http://aic.stanford.edu/jaic/articles/j ... 2-003.html

Takes a little while, but worth it, IMO.

Bill

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:43 pm

here is an xx 32048 the handles went south on. they crinkled up like a dried prune. sent to case for repair. they would not pin the old shield on, but the knife is better for it.

i sold all my celluloid awhile back because i could read the writing on the wall. i still have several yellow "composition" case knives, but i keep them seperated from my other knives. i buy natural now and it's a shame because there are some beautiful celuoids out there.

El Lobo · Post by **El Lobo** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:36 pm

Here is a little shell handled Hammer, that has it all...outgassing, crazing, peeling, cracking, shrinking, and pitting.

Otherwise, it's in mint condition.

Bill

justold52 · Post by **justold52** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:46 pm

coinshooter; Did you look in General Knife Discussion Post (Celluloid Handles) Start with page one Please look at all of them. You will see many old celluloid knifes too. I too got scared of owning them at first. Now after learning more I just in joy the looks so much I still buy some. Keep THEM away from other knives. Check them more but that’s good cuz what good is a knife that you not see much any way? If one starts to go bad then try to replace the scales with some thing that you do like. Make it one of a kind or custom knife.

That one CCBill shows HURTS me

but if he looked at it more often he may have saved the knife by just changing the scales.

coinshooter You stated that you are NEW here. WELCOME to the super site. Learn lots from others mistakes. You are doing the right thing here. ASK ASK ASK

coinshooter · Post by **coinshooter** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:11 am

Thanks to El Lobo for the two reference articles. Answered almost all my questions except why are they still producing this stuff? Aren't the manufacturers concerned about being sued if this material is as fire prone as the articles state? Surely there must be better products for use out there?

Hukk · Post by **Hukk** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:34 am

I have seen custom knife makers use Corian but this will only give a solid color. Some of the Chinese knives are going with something called Corolon that has a lot of color. Also Michael Prater has a line of Mica-Pearl colors which may also be Corolon. http://www.pratercustoms.com/default.ph ... 6cb330206a If I'm not mistaken, Mike has a patent for his line of Mica-Pearl and Corolon.
But nothing is as versitile and low priced as celluloid yet. Many collectable knives made years ago were made to be used, not as collectables. Delrin is a very nice material and it is impervious to nearly everything and many companies use it, not enough probably.
But, until something comes along that is cheap and versitile (can make it be nearly any color and the process is repeatable as far as color is concerned), we will be using celluloid for until that time. I have some knives with celluloid that are over 50 years old and they are as fine as the day they were made

and I have some that are only 20 years old and they are badly outgassed.

So, the celluloid making process is not repeatable from that standpoint. Fire, no big deal, they have insurance and it's a part of doing business.

coinshooter · Post by **coinshooter** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:54 am

I can see that my "snow days in the house" will be taken up with going thru my knives, removing the tissue paper I so carefully wrapped them in, trying to determine if they are celluloid (I'm not going to give them the flame test tho), seperating the ones I can definitely id as celluloid and wrapping them in acid free paper (based on the reference articles, I would guess waxed paper would not be a good idea as it would tend to seal any gases in) and not putting them in the air tight plastic ammo boxes that the other knives are in.
All of this made me remember that the first celluloid billard ball factory was here in Albany NY and there was a "story" that one of the reasons they stopped making them was that occasionally a really hard hit between two of them would cause an explosion. If I find a gassed out cheapie in my collection, maybe I'll test that thought
Thanks to all for the info

orvet · Post by **orvet** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:53 pm

Has anyone heard that Renaissance Wax may help to retard the out gassing process? It seems that I heard that somewhere (just don't remember where). I can't imagine that it can really stop the chemical breakdown.

I use Renaissance Wax in my knives and really like the way it prevents fingerprinting on the blades and smooth handles. It is great for that purpose.

Dale

coinshooter · Post by **coinshooter** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:58 pm

I use Renaissance Wax also based on the write up that it seals out moisture better than oil or grease on a long term basis because once applied and polished, it does not dry out
Based on the reference articles that El Lobo supplied, out gassing is a release of chemical/gas. Sealing the handle with wax would probably make things worse.
One of the reference articles mentioned wrapping the knives in acid free paper. I just bought some on the net and in the ad for it, they mention not to wrap your Beanie Babies in zip lock bags because the PVC plastic buttons it is stuffed with tend to out gas and by sealing them, the gas will destroy the Beanie Baby
I wonder what the odds are of coming across 2 instances of damage to two such different things by out gassing in 2 days? Maybe I should go by a lotto ticket

El Lobo · Post by **El Lobo** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:06 pm

Hmmmmm.....

Outgassing would seem pretty logical coming from a Beanie Baby...

Good luck with the acid free papers...don't roll them too tight, or they won't draw very well.

Bada Boom...Bada Bing

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.....

BILL