REMINDED OF WHY I BUY KNIVES

[Mossdancer]

TO ANYONE OR ALL
MADE A TRIP DOWN THE OREGON COAST LAST WEDNESDAY AND FRIDAY FOUND NOT A DARN THING WORTH BUYING. SATURDAY A TRIP UP THE WASHINGTON COAST, FOUND SEVERAL GOOD BUYS ON CASES
BUT NOTHING BLEW MY HAIR BACK. WALKED TO THE BACK OF THE SAME MALL AND IN A SMALL CORNER CASE WAS A NONDESCRIPT CAMPKING. STARTED TO LEAVE AND CAUGHT A GLIMPSE OF A BLACK JIGGED BONE HANDLE. CLOSER LOOK SAYS CRAP ITS UPSIDE DOWN AND HALF HIDDEN WITH PRICE TAG HIDDEN, THOUGHT WELL ITS PROBABLY AN IMPERIAL OR SOMETHING OF THAT ILK. WALKED BACK TO COUNTER, TOLD LADY I NEEDED TO TAKE A PEEK AT A KNIFE.
WE WALKED BACK, SHE OPENED CASE SAID HELP MYSELF. REACHED IN AND TOOK IT OUT, LOOKED AT PRICE FIRST, REALLY LOW. TURNED IT
OVER, COULD TELL FROM BACK OF BLADES THEY WERE A LONG SPEY AND A LONG CLIP. OPENED UP THE CLIP AND READ THE TANG WITHOUT MY GLASSES ON. KA-BAR OVER OLEAN,N.Y., TOLD LADY I WILL TAKE IT.
THE FEELING I GET TO SEE SOMETHING AND KNOW INFO. THAT THE SELLER DOESN'T GIVES ME A GOOD FEELING.
TO THOSE OF YOU WHO RECOGNIZE THE BUY, GREAT. TO THOSE WHO DONT PA KNIVES CAN EXPLAIN THE CONNECTION TO HIM
THANKS FOR LISTENING
MOSSDANCER.

[PA Knives]

Ok, first you must let knife world know the store that you found this at, cause there might be more!!!! Great find, I should be so lucky. A picture would be even better. When Union Cutlery moved from Tidioute PA to Olean, they later adopted the KA BAR name. This is direct descendant to a PA related company. These are highly collectable and make a great addition to any knife collection in my opinion.

I have experienced your same frustration in the Antique malls. The one knife I am interested in is always turned over with no info showing. My eyes aren't as good as they use to be either. The clerk acts like I am a pain to ask to see it. Usually it is something that doesn't work for me and I don't buy it. If it is good, the price is usually so imflated due to misunderstanding of the seller that I pass it by too.

Great story.

[Mossdancer]

Pa
Nice try but its the international answer. Any store any town, that being said timing is of the essence.
A question for you or anyone who might give me some insight. I have this english jack, see LG IV page 213 bottom right for picture. the only marking is KA-BAR over U.S.A., the exposed back spring lock release just makes it look older than 1951 to me. Is this just wishful thinking on my part or is it earlier? Any help will be appreciated.
Mossdancer
P.S. the handles are genuine stag, natural color.

[PA Knives]

Funny you ask becuase I just bought a KA-BAR USA at an auction. I am going to sell it but, as I researched it, The stamp is a little early than what you mentioned. I suggest checking you books again, or post a photo and I can check it for you. Others like Bill may know the answer right off. Let me know,

[El Lobo]

MOSSDANCER,

I would be glad to try and help. I don't know offhand, but I've got time, and I enjoy looking.

I would need the EXACT stamp...( I've seen Ka-Bar {I think}, and Kabar over U.S.A. ... but never KA-BAR, over U.S.A.
The U.S.A. knives USUALLY have a tiny pattern # inbetween... so that is puzzling as well, if it isn't visible. But, KABAR didn't always stamp the pattern number anywhere...like Case, for instance.

The knife in Levine's is BONE stag, and is a Union Cut....before they adopted the KA-BAR, Ka-Bar, Kabar, (whatever... ) name, so we might not be dealing in the same handle materials. Stag sounds special.

But, that's what research is all about...

A picture WOULD be good....

Oh, oh yeah, how long is it and does yours have a swing guard?

Bill

[Mossdancer]

PA
Dont have a kabar book. Only reference to this brand I have is LG IV.
see page 60 Kabar cutlery started 1951. See page 119 right hand column
third and second from bottom, there is some confusion re: CAPS and lower case Kabar. Thats the limit of my knowledge. thanks for input.

BILL
Answers that I hope will help.
Swing Guard = yes
Closed length 4 1/4 inches
Open length 8 1/2 + inches
i AM 99% SURE THE HANDLES ARE FIRST CUT STAG.
Exact tang mark, KA-BAR over U.S.A. these characters are about half size , they start at leading edge of first A and end at approx first edge of second A. If you have LG IV see page 60 for some Kabar tang marks.
Thank you for any help you can give. BOY ARE YOU RIGHT ABOUT RESEARCH, YOU CANT DO ENOUGH AND YOU WILL GO TO POOR HOUSE BUYING BOOKS.
MOSSDANCER

[El Lobo]

OK,

Goins' Encyclopedia (where Mr. Levine got most of his marking information, as they were friends) doesn't show a :

KA-BAR
U.S.A. (BIG or little)


I find:

1.KA-BAR/UNION CUT.
2.KA-BAR
3.KA-BAR
Olean, N.Y.
4. Ka-Bar
Olean, N.Y.


That doesn't mean some don't exist.

In late 1951 or early 1952, the stamp was changed to:

Kabar
U.S.A.
OR
Kabar
xxxx (pattern)
U.S.A.

This occurred when Union Cutlery renamed itself the Kabar Cutlery Company.

Maybe you've got a "Transition" knife, or a prototype, with that stamping??

I did find a 2165LG (Stag...Single Blade...Locking...Guard) Folding Hunter in Houston Price's fine Guide... (Who mentions KA-BAR was a tm for Union even in the 20s)....However, it shows as 4 3/8" and as having a Kabar, not a KA-BAR tangstamp.

Does your knife have an escutcheon (shield)? What is the shape?

We'll keep trying...maybe someone else can add something, as well.

Bill

[Mossdancer]

Hi Bill
Its evident we are looking in two different books, mine on page 60 shows
KA-BAR (only mark) see Kabar Cutlery Co.
KA-BAR/Union Cut. Co. see Union Cutlery Co. 1923-1951
KA-BAR/Olean N.Y. see KA-BAR/UNION CUT.CO.
KA-BAR/U.S.A. See Kabar Cutlery Co.
KA-BAR(number USA see Kabar (cole National)

Kabar Cutlery Co. KA-BAR,KA-BAR/U.S.A. 1951-c1966
successor to Union Cutlery Co.
Kabar Cole National Corp. c1966-1996
sold to Alcas Cutlery Co.1996
My copy is extensively revised 4th edition. I interpret the slash marks to mean the following is under the preceeding.
thanks for your patience
MOSSDANCER

[El Lobo]

MOSSDANCER,

I also have Levine's 4th...it is one of 6 similar books, plus the internet I use for research. I try to develop a working model from those who have information on a brand/knife.

So, I'm not debating Mr. Levine, just pointing out what is out there, versus only one person's opinion.

I probably can't be of help without some detailed pictures.

You might consider contacting Mr. Levine, who is quite knowledgeable and reasonable, directly for an appraisal...

http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/appr-k.htm

Best of luck.

Bill

[Mossdancer]

BILL
PLEASE EXCUSE MY INSOLENCE, NO DISRESPECT WAS INTENDED.
I AM CURRENTLY LEARNING A NEW CAMERA SYSTEM. HOPEFULLY I
CAN GET SOME PICTURES WITHIN A SHORT WHILE.
THANK YOU
MOSSDANCER

[PA Knives]

HI!

THis is a knife that I am sellig on ebay right now. It has the stamp I believe you are talking about. This may help Bill.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... %3AIT&rd=1

I would like to learn more myself

[El Lobo]

Thanks for that picture/listing pa knives.

OK then, as I mentioned above, it (not finding a consensus in reference material) doesn't mean a stamp doesn't exist... it just means I couldn't find any matches with the right pattern, handle material, and tangstamp in any of MY material. So, I wouldn't be able to use that stamp to "Date" the knife, as I can find no solid dating information on the tangstamp:
KA-BAR
U.S.A.
Especially on the knife as described. Sometimes folks are excited/eager and misread or miscopy a tangstamp on a knife, so I guess I was a bit concerned (anal? ) about "seeing" that stamp on a knife with no pattern number.
I can only surmise it was 1951 (just as MOSSDANCER mentioned) or later...when U.S.A. was added to the stamp. I also "guessed" at the possibility of a transition or prototype knife, which we might never find "Listed" anywhere.
Therefore, on MOSSDANCER's knife, pictures MIGHT help...or that is why I suggested an appraisal from Mr. Levine might be the best idea. He would want pictures though as well, I'm sure. He probably has much more KA-BAR...Ka-Bar...Kabar, oh whatever , knowledge than is in his book.

MOSSDANCER, no offense was ever taken, as I was the one who offered to help in the first place. Maybe I didn't communicate my thoughts very well? It wouldn't be the first time.....

Now, on to pa knive's knife (say that fast 3 times )...
I find a 3" equal end pen with composition scales and a KA-BAR stamp listed in Houston Price's Guide. However, your knife looks like it might be a serpentine pattern.
Pa, is your knife 3" long? Is it equal end? If not, we keep looking.

Bill

[PA Knives]

Hey!


It is an equal end. What do you have?????


I can't wait.

[Mossdancer]

PA
THE SHORT ANSWER IS PROBABLY, THE SWING GUARD ON MINE COVERS A GREAT DEAL OF THE U.S.A. . REALIZING THERE WERE DIFFERENT TANG STAMPS FOR EACH TANG AND FRAME TYPE MORE THAN
LIKELY IT IS THE THE SAME STAMP. IM GETTING CLOSER ON THE PICTURES LATE LAST NIGHT , NOT VERY GOOD QUALITY. I 'LL TRY AGAIN THIS AFTERNOON.
BILL
THANKS , ME TOO, AGE HASN"T MADE ME A DAMN BIT EASIER TO GET ALONG WITH. I DO PLAN ON SUBMITTING SEVERAL AT ONE TIME FOR MY FIRST SUBMISSION TO WHATSIT.
MOSSDANCER

[Mossdancer]

TO ALL WITH INTEREST
HERE ARE THREE PHOTOS, NOT PROFESSIONAL BUT OKAY I HOPE
MOSSDANCER

[Mossdancer]

PA KNIVES
HERES THREE OF THE LIGHT TRAPPER THAT STARTED THIS WHOLE THING.
MOSSDANCER

[El Lobo]

MOSSDANCER,

That folding hunter is nice!!
It is enough of a mystery...with that stamp and those scales (MIGHT be "stagged" BONE, maybe not...it does look like stag) to invest in Levine's appraisal service. Could fetch a few hundred to the right collector, in my opinion.

I can find nothing more to help, sorry.

Bill

EDITED: MOSSDANCER, check page #220 in Levine's Guide regarding the pattern...you were not wrong in calling it a Jack...I was just trying to refine the terminology.

[Mossdancer]

HEY THANKS BILL
I THOUGHT IT WAS AN ENGLISH JACK, BUT IM PERFECTLY WILLING FOR IT TO BE A FOLDING HUNTER I HAVE SEVERAL CASES IT WILL BLEND WELL WITH.
THANKS A LOT
MOSSDANCER

[PA Knives]

Bill, is correct, that is a hunter pattern and I believe it is quite valuable. Your photo's are coming along nicely. Mark from Knife World instructed me to always add something to the photo for comparision and interest. Not a ruler or a dime, but something like a fishing lure or shotgun shell, something leather or outdoors like, Hope you get my drift. It adds to the photo. Nice stuff, I should be so lucky.

[Mossdancer]

PA
BILL
YOUR BOTH RIGHT.
IF IT WILL FLY, I'LL STAY WITH FOLDING HUNTERM THERE WORTH CONSIDERABLY MORE.
THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO HELPED AND VIEWED.
A NEW POSTING SHOULD BE A NICE QUIZZER.
MOSSDANCER