On the fence-Robeson Toothpick/Fish Knife

[whitebuffalo58]

I picked this pair of Robeson Toothpick/Fish knives up from Charlie Noyes. They were some of the surplus knives from his 60's Robeson display.

The mint one's going into my collection as is. It's the one with stress cracks that has me pondering.
Both knives are identical, except one is flat ground on both sides and the other is saber ground on the front side only and flat ground on the reverse. The number on both is 822407. (comp. handles, 2-blades, brass liners/nickel silver bolsters, 407 toothpick pattern)
My first option would be to try and replace the cracked handles with as close as possible yellow comp. I have a source that I think I can get awfully close. That would essentially give me 2 versions of the same knife.
The second option would be to replace the handles with a different comp. material. I have a sheet of really nice waterfall celluloid, or maybe one of the modern corolon type materials. Although different, it would be in keeping with the knifes model/pattern number and would make a nice display piece.
The third option would be a full, all out customization. I mean, what a great pallet to start with, right? The rest of the knife is mint, but will never be original. I could leave it as is and just throw it in the tackle box. But, I already have a good W.R. Case that I use and don't really need another. Besides, customizing this knife would be a lot of fun.
Some ideas I had were, replacing the scaler blade with a secondary pen blade. That would require a very specific blade to do it right. It would have to be a fairly long pen blade, almost a small spear blade. The placement of the nail nick would have to fall right to be able to access it properly. And of course, the perfect fit in the open and closed positions is a must. Nothing hard about any of that, right?
From there, full blown filework. Blades, backsprings, maybe even the liners. Maybe custom blade etches? Engraved bolsters!
Then there's the handles! Pearl, Abalone, Stag! Not to mention all the new bones and fossil materials that are nothing short of stunning.
I ponder all these things and think, what would I have in the end? On the one hand, it's still gonna be a modified from original 60's era Robeson T/P Fish knife. But then, on the other hand I think, hey they customize Buck 110's by the thousands. Why not a 60's era Robeson T/P Fish knife?
The toothpick has always been my favorite pattern and i've never really had a custom Toothpick. Sooo...here I sit on the fence. Waiting to see which way the wind blows. Anybody wanna breeze in and help knock me off? WB

[philco]

My only suggestion is that if you opt to replace the handles that you stick with a smooth surfaced handle material which preferably won't outgas and ruin the knife sometime in the future. The reason I suggest the handles have a smooth surface is that the knife was originally intended to use on fish, slimey fish, and a stag or jigged bone handle would retain the slime. I know you aren't lilkely to ever actually use the knife to clean a fish, but I think it still advisable to stay within the original design peramiters. But then again, that's just me. Have fun whatever you decide to do.

[conslade]

Several years ago, I was modifing an old Kabar fish knife. For a while I thought about trying to make a long pen blade from an old melon tester I had lying around. I wound up using the scaler and putting some jigged amber bone on it. Came out pretty nice, but I wondered later how that melon tester idea would have worked out. Just a thought for you to chew on. Good luck and post a picture or two when you get 'er done.

[whitebuffalo58]

Thanks for the replies guys!
Phil, good point as to the smooth surface and I think maybe you're refering to the celluloid being a bad choice. The waterfall material I have was a recent purchase and i'm not sure, but it may be modern version and not a true celluloid. I need to test it. Even if it is a true celluloid, it will have likely aged beyond the danger point and should be reasonably stable by now. I've learned a lot about the aspects of celluloid over the years and it doesn't bother me to the degree it does some folks, but it does require special attention.
If I decide to go all out on this knife, i'd really love to do it in Paua Abalone. Smooth as silk and as beautiful as any handle material there is. IMHO However, slabs that size are not gonna be cheap and i'm not sure i'm skilled enough to fit 'em up. Not to mention one too many peens on the pins.
Conslade, a modified melon blade might be a good choice. I had been thinking along the lines of a small to medium size spear blade, from say a 3 1/2"-4" jack knife. But, a melon blade could be a better idea. You're right, something to think about. BTW, if you still have it around, i'd love to see a pic of that ol' Kabar T/P fish knife you did.
Thanks for the input, tips and ideas guys, WB

[biglmbass]

Might be a long shot to find a 2nd, or used one on the cheap, but the GEC 48 trapper jack with the pen secondary has the longest pen blade I've ever seen. Just a thought.... I have no idea how much trouble it would be to make it fit.

The GEC 2-blade t'picks have a nice pen blade as well, but are much shorter than on the 48.

[IMBand]

I think you should modify it. Don't worry about smooth scales if you do filework, the filework
will be every bit as hard to clean as any textured handles would be .

I think the modified one sitting next to the stock knife in a display would be cool too.

Sounds like a great project - DEFINITELY DO THE SECONDARY PEN!!!



IM

[orvet]

Even if it is a true celluloid, it will have likely aged beyond the danger point and should be reasonably stable by now.

According to Dennis Ellingsen's Knife World article, ttp://www.oregonknifeclub.org/celluloid_02.html celluloid can begin the decomposition process at any time. I don’t know the newer celluloid to be any more stable. The modern Bulldogs & Fighting Roosters have been some of the worst cases of off-gassing that I have seen.
I guess I am still a skeptic when it comes to celluloid.


If you do go with the abalone, be real careful when you sand or grind it.
IITC, it was Hukk who said abalone shell dust is poisonous. Be sure to wear a respirator.

I can't wait to see what you do with this knife!
A fish knife is an excellent platform from which to create something new & different.

[whitebuffalo58]

Thanks guys, the wind is blowing in the direction I had actually hoped it would.
biglmbass, great lead. My family considers me to be a bit eccentric at times, but I just don't know if I could pull myself to scrap out a perfectly good GEC for the pen blade or not. Wonder if GEC would sell me just an unmarked blade blank? Might could take that approach with Case or Queen too. Anyone ever tried that?
IM, i'm with you. The secondary pen blade is an almost must do. One of the concepts that keeps coming back to me is trying to stay within the perimeters of the original Robeson pattern/model number. Not as a way of fooling anyone (I do intend to mark the knife as being customized) but it just seems like there would be something right about trying to do that. The number designates this knife as having 2 blades but not the style of blades.
Dale, I was already having second thoughts on the waterfall material. I'm not sure yet whether it is a true celluloid or a modern waterfall composition.(plastic?) My books show the "8" in the factory number as being "Swirl Composition". I just kinda thought the waterfall would fit into that catagory fairly well. With that said, Robeson apparently didn't have a number for yellow comp or Abalone either one, so...
In the end, the handle material is the one area i'm likely gonna end up straying away from the factory number. I like composition handles alright, (and there are some real beautys available now days) but it just seems like it would fall short of what i'd like to end up with on this knife. Paua Abalone would just look too cool! If I go that route I will be careful.
Thanks for all the input guys, the vision for this knifes future is getting clearer all the time.
WB

[muskrat man]

You don't necessarily have to use a LONG pen blade. If you get a pen blade with the pull on the RIGHT side and not the left (like the one in your avatar) it could be whatever length you like. Sounds like it will be an interesting project. Maybe even add a dainty little bail. I wouldn't do the cell. New cell is worse than old cell because it is usually old stock and is even more unpredictable due to it's extreme age. No one is still making it that I am aware of.

[whitebuffalo58]

That's true MM, I guess as long as the kick would allow for fine tuning the blade into the closed position it could work just fine. Another good idea! The bail idea ain't half bad either. I always wanted to try fileworking one of the flat style bails, or maybe have it engraved if I have the bolsters done?
As far as the waterfall material goes, I ran out to the shop and powdered up a corner of the slab with a piece of 320 and it definetly is the old school celluloid. DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!!!
Naw...I know celluloid has a bad rep., but to be honest, if I was gonna leave this as Fish knife, i'd still be tempted to use it. You know, fish, water, waterfall...it just sounds like it would be a fitting handle material. But, i'm pretty much set on the idea of putting in the pen blade to replace the scaler. In which case, the waterfall celluloid loses it's edge.
I've pretty much narrowed it down to either the Abalone or maybe Sambar Stag. I've got a couple of slabs of drop dead gorgeous stag i've been saving for a special project. This could be it. The only other real possibility is doing channel inlay style handles with various exotic materials. I still like the looks of channel inlay, but to me it's been a bit over done and doesn't have quite the appeal it did in the early days of the Yellowhorse Bucks.
Thanks for the input MM, it was all good! Reckon my first step will be to start tearin' the knife down so I can try and find a suitable pen blade match. I've got a feeling those both may be the hardest parts of the whole project. Any good advise on how to locate the blade pivot and rear spring pins? Time to reread Dales tutorial. WB

[whitebuffalo58]

Welp, I got off the fence and here she is. I started with the rear knife in the OP pic.
Tear down complete, ready for customizing.

Custom work complete, a little more clean-up and polish on the insides of the liners and she's ready for reassembly.

Reassembly complete!

I made the wharncliffe blade from scratch. I'm not sure what SS Robeson used, but I used 440C. I had to mill 1/8" stock down to .082 and used the original clip blade as a pattern for the tang. Heat treat/temper should have it at about 58rc. The "R" tang stamp could be for Robeson, but happens to be the initial of my first name.
All together I figure i've got about 40 hours in it from start to finish. Not counting the untold hours of the first 2 weeks trying to find a suitable replacement for the scaler bade. It finally dawned on me that I could spend years trying to find one.
I'm still pondering getting the bolsters engraved, but probably won't till atleast after Christmas.
It was a fun project, hope ya'll like the end result as much as I do and hope Charlie feels that i've done the ol' girl justice.
WB

[Joe Dirt]

All I can say is WoW!!!

That Warnie looks like it was made for it.
I can see the hours and feel the cramps from all the filing.

Super nice work, WB!

..... Joe

[whitebuffalo58]

Thanks Joe! I kinda thought I scaled the wharncliffe just about right too. And yep, it is amazing how many lineal inches there are in knife when you're going around it with a file.
WB

[biglmbass]

Great job. You didn't waste time getting after that. Quite a transformation.

[orvet]

That is really impressive WB!
Did you do the heat treat on the blade yourself?

Very nice work!

[TripleF]

Absolutely incredible WB!!

[whitebuffalo58]

Thanks guys!
Bass, the work did seem to progress fairly quick, once I got the "vision" of what I wanted to do.
Dale, I did do the heat treat/tempering myself. About 8-10 years ago, my brother got a new digital oven. He gave me his old analog dial oven. The dial goes from 1-10, but over the years he'd had it, he tested it and marked the dial for the various nominal temperatures for most of the standard knife steels. It's not as deadly acurate as a digital, but definetly accurate enough to get the job done. I always test the blades with a magnet as they come out and it's never failed to do what it was set at to do. The only 2 steels i've worked with since i've had it are 440C and D2. I have formulas for varying hardness's from 56-60rc on the 440C and 58-62rc on the D2. My brother also has a Rockwell C tester and i've checked a few blades over the years and was never off by more then +/- 1 or 2 points. I've kinda "learned" the oven over the years and pretty much have the process down. It's only a 1 cu. ft. oven, but I could squeeze in up to 14" fixed blade.
Big brothers got a few knives, (some I wouldn't mind having) but he's not really a collector. I count myself blessed that he is pretty deep into knifemaking and has taught me quite a lot. I've tried a few folders from scratch, but most of the knives i've built were fixed blades. 95% of those I donate to various charities in the area. Volunteer Fire Dept., school fund raisers, raffles to aid families of deceased locals, etc...In a very small community like I live in, it's how we survive.
Anyway, I guess that was a long winded way of saying yes I did.
WB

P.S. thanks Scott!

[conslade]

Great job! Love those scales and the filework. Wish I could make mine look that good! Bravo!!

[whitebuffalo58]

Thanks conslade! I gotta tell ya though, if I can do it, anyone can do it. Just get yourself some old flea market knives, read the tutorials and before you know it, you'll do it as well as most anyone else. I'm far from the level of many of the ones that post here, but I do feel like i'm gettin' better. I've gotten a lot of help along the way, and it's even getting a little easier because of it. It may not be for everybody, but I do highly recommend everyone atleast try a couple. It's a fun hobby.
WB

[Ramrod]

WB,
Very impressive! Next time take some pics as you go for us.
How did you cut the nail nick in on the warnie?
Again, Well done.
Mark

[glennbad]

Very nice and pimped out, WB! I need shades to just to look at it.

Great work.

Glenn

[whitebuffalo58]

Thanks Mark & Glenn!
Glenn, shades provided.
Mark, I know, I do need to document better with more pics. I always kick myself for not doin' it. It's a lame excuse, but I get focused on what i'm doin' and just don't seem to think about it until it's too late. I've got several project knives to work on and will try to do better at gettin' some pics taken as go.
The nailnick, believe it or not, was done with a Dremmel cut-off wheel on a drill press, followed up with a Dremmel tool and drum sanding and buffing wheel attachments. I was surprisingly happy with how it turned out. I'll do one on a piece of scrap, try and get some decent pics and post 'em here.
The only other pics that I took during this knife are these. First one is after coining the liners. I laid out marks every 1/16" and just counted strokes. 1,2,3,4...1,2,3,4,...
The second is of a couple of tools I found useful. The soft paint pad worked pretty good at removing polishing compound from the filework. I found that it worked best if I caught it while the compound was still soft. It tends to set up as it cools down.
The other tool is my version of a backspring tool. I made it from a mini prybar. I used a 4" grinder to remove most of the material and cut the slot with the Dremmel cut-off wheel. (kinda wish i'd done a neater job of it now) The tempered steel in the bar, makes for a tough backspring tool. Just had to be careful to not overheat the metal while making it. It works perfect.

I'll get some pics too of the rest of the set-up I used with the backspring tool.
Oh, and one more tool I might mention. Every year I seem to need a pair of magnifying visors just a little more often then the year before, I had to use them on practically every step of the detail work on this one.
WB

[whitebuffalo58]

Here's some pics of how I did the nailnick.

Chuck up a cutoff wheel in a drill press. Stand the blade blank up and lower the arbour to the prefered height, lock it in. Cut a slot by sliding the blank against the wheel. Travel back and forth all depends on how long you want the pull. Cut to approx. half the thickness of the blank.

After completeing the slot, clamp the blank to a work surface. Using a rotary tool fitted with a small drum sanding attachment, cut in the concave area by starting in the center of the slot and working side to side toward the edges. When almost complete, switch to fine grit sleeve and work the concave from one end to the other. This will even up the concave and leave a smooth surface for polishing.

Finish up by buffing to a nice shine. If heat treating the blade, you can skip the polish till after the heat treat.

This is a pic of how the backspring tool works. The vises rubber back jaw allows the springs to "over travel" and relieve tension on the blades.

I'm sure there are better ways of doing these things, these are just ways i've found to do them using the stuff I have at my disposal.
WB

P.S. Not sure how that last pic got there.