Old, possibly Civil War vintage

[jerryd6818]

Sandra, welcome to AAPK. Six degrees of separation and sometimes less.

I played with the picture showing the identifying marks and after some adjustment to brightness, contrast and size it's somewhat more clear. Thought someone might be interested.

The arrow looks very much like the modern British MoD (Ministry of Defence) acceptance stamp. Makes one wonder if they patterned it after the Oates trade mark.

[Dave T]

I came across this discussion on an Oates Barlow knife found at Gettysburg while researching my ancestors, the Oates cutler family of Stannington Sheffield. I may be able to shed some light on its origin and date of manufacture.
The trade mark (q-heart-dart) became the mark of Luke Oates (1799-1875) of Stannington in 1842. Prior to that it had belonged to Luke’s grandfather, Matthew Oates, (1740-1825) knifemaker of Stannington. Luke’s father Matthew (1768-1803) died young and probably never owned the mark. Luke Oates was apprentice to his grandfather Matthew and inherited one sixteenth of his estate (a very detailed will). He went on to have his grandfather’s trade mark re-issued to himself in 1842 and he successfully built up a knife business at Alpha Works in Stannington (built by his grandfather about 1820) from 1830 till his death in 1875.
Between 1835 and 1864 there are detailed newspaper reports of 3 court cases concerned with trade marks and knife wrapper labelling involving Luke as the accused and Samuel BARLOW as accuser. These reports reveal that between 1835 and 1840 Luke illegally used a trade mark which was very like the true Barlow trade mark. He undertook to cease this practice in 1840. He obtained his own trade mark in 1842, and his will (also very detailed) shows he was extremely proud of this mark and he used the name LUKE OATES with it. I assume that Matthew before him used Matthew Oates. However after Matthew’s death (1825) to 1842 he would not be allowed to use Luke Oates, and presumably the factory used just Oates with the q heart dart. Therefore the knife which was found “a couple of years after Gettysburg” was manufactured at Alpha Works in Stannington by Luke Oates either between 1825 and 1835 or between 1840 and 1842.
The third court case (in 1864) revealed that Luke had since 1835 been packing his Barlows in wrappers that said (falsely) “the only genuine and original Barlow”. Luke’s knife was inferior to (and cheaper than) the original Barlow (invented by Samuel Barlow whose trade mark was issued 1720 and who was the grandfather of the accusing Samuel Barlow) but it was superior to all the other Barlow copies manufactured in Stannington.
Incidentally, I believe that the cyphers on the bolster of the Gettysburg knife are DJ, probably the initials of the owner.

[PA Knives]

NOW THAT'S some interesting cutlery history. Truly a wonderful thread for those of us that treasure that sort of thing. THANK YOU so much.

As a lover of cutlery history, nothing gets me going more than to learn fine details about an old company like this

[knives-are-quiet]

The shape of the arrow and the shape of the "q" will determine the maker.
There is more than a 100 year difference in between makers.

(VERY NICE ANTIQUE KNIFE)

J W



(LOOKS LIKE LUKE'S MARK TO ME)
"For the knife in question"

Other makers named Oates from the same era.
Maybe related......

[trail]

Dave T, welcome to AAPK. I can't begin to thank you enough for the information you have shared and will pass it on to the owner of the knife. I know he will be thrilled to see the dates you have listed since that helps validate the family story that the knife was found on the Gettysburg battlefield. It is additional evidence that the knife is old enough for this to be possible. JW, thanks for adding the detail as to the evolution of the stamp.

Everyone, I think this thread demonstrates the service AAPK is doing for the knife community in researching and preserving the history of the cutlery industry. It is amazing that this old thread has come up again with new information and commentary. I hope we are all still discussing this knife and other old classics for years to come.

[Dave T]

Thank you. Regardless of the accuracy of the details of my earlier argument I can be pretty sure that Luke Oates always added the words LUKE OAtES beneath his mark once it had been re-issued to him in 1842. He died in 1875, long after Gettysburg. Thanks also to JW for showing me the marks of Matthew and Luke Oates.
I wonder if he can please show me the marks of Samuel (or maybe John) Barlow in 1787 and ,for the same time, the mark of Samuel Gregory, a scissorsmith? That is the mark Luke Oates purchased and used illegally on his Barlow knives between 1835 and 1840.
Regards, Dave T

[Dave T]

Hello again to all. The more I read this thread the more interesting clues I find for my ancestry research. Can anyone please help me to find a copy of an article in KnifeWorld Magazine January 2010 on Luke Oates Barlow Knives?

[jerryd6818]

cattaraugus57 has a copy of that issue. Send a PM to him. Maybe he will copy it for you.

[trail]

JW, I have to agree with you that the stamp most closely resembles the one you showed us for Luke Oates & Co 1892. However, if Luke died in 1875, I wonder about that 1892 date. The knife resembles one built far earlier than the 1890s. Next time I see Hal I'll try to get him to bring the knife back in and maybe I can get some more detailed pictures that would help us to date this knife.

[Dave T]

When Luke Oates died (1875) his company continued to trade as Luke Oates & Co until well into the 20th century. It was administered by a group of trustees.
Dave T

[knives-are-quiet]

Thank you. Regardless of the accuracy of the details of my earlier argument I can be pretty sure that Luke Oates always added the words LUKE OAtES beneath his mark once it had been re-issued to him in 1842. He died in 1875, long after Gettysburg. Thanks also to JW for showing me the marks of Matthew and Luke Oates.
I wonder if he can please show me the marks of Samuel (or maybe John) Barlow in 1787 and ,for the same time, the mark of Samuel Gregory, a scissorsmith? That is the mark Luke Oates purchased and used illegally on his Barlow knives between 1835 and 1840.
Regards, Dave T

"DAVE T",
I couldn't find any makers marks for John Barlow.
From what I'm getting from a little internet research is that Obadiah and Both John & John jr. used just the words "Barlow" on there knives.
Could only find these drawings presumably from John Barlow knives.


As for Samuel Barlow, He is stated here not to be related to the original Family of Barlow makers.
Here is part of an article stating this along with Samuel's mark "a sideways (Z) small circle and a sword scimitar.
Also a picture I found of one of his knives that is selling for $900.00.





Sorry, can't find anything about Samuel Gregory "scissorsmith".
But there is a William Gregory & Sons from Sheffield.

Hope some of this info helps.
I will keep looking and if I find more info I'll post it.

J W

[Dave T]

JW, thanks for all that, particularly the Z and falchion mark. Do you know the age of the knife it is on please? I know that mark was used from about 1720 (Samuel Barlow) then his son (John), then his grandson (also Samuel, of Neepsend)) then, from 1851 to at least 1900 by Henry Mills, son-in-law of the last Samuel. Some details of the Barlow history do not match to what I have from the detailed court cases. Therefore I have just spoken to the ultimate authority (the Sheffield (Hallamshire) Company of Cutlers) and their archivist will check out the details and come back to me. Are you interested in the answers when I get them?
Regards, Dave

[knives-are-quiet]

JW, thanks for all that, particularly the Z and falchion mark. Do you know the age of the knife it is on please? I know that mark was used from about 1720 (Samuel Barlow) then his son (John), then his grandson (also Samuel, of Neepsend)) then, from 1851 to at least 1900 by Henry Mills, son-in-law of the last Samuel. Some details of the Barlow history do not match to what I have from the detailed court cases. Therefore I have just spoken to the ultimate authority (the Sheffield (Hallamshire) Company of Cutlers) and their archivist will check out the details and come back to me. Are you interested in the answers when I get them?
Regards, Dave

Hey Dave,
I can't be sure from the picture of the knife for sale as there is only one picture with the blades closed. If there is the word "Barlow" on it below his marks it would make it after 1798.
If no "Barlow" it would put it in between 1787 ~ 1798.
Here's the link to website selling the knife.
Maybe you can email them for more info on the knife?
(Wish I was rich, I'd buy that knife but I would have to make sure it was authentic first.)

http://www.freewebs.com/sagetown/apps/w ... how/260151

I am no Barlow expert but they are my favorite type of pocket knife.
This is just what I found searching around the internet.
The drawings of the makers marks are from a book on Sheffield cutlery.
The dates are just reference dates probably from an assay office , so I wouldn't go by those dates.

Of coarse, by all means post the info on this post when you get your responce from the archivist .
I think all of us would be very interested.
Remember this Forum is all about pocket knives.

J W

[Dave T]

Hi JW. I am no authority on knives, and I have come at this while doing research on my ancestor Luke Oates, knifemaker of Stannington. Having obtained some Cutler's Marks records from the Company of Cutlers of Hallamshire I can now add a few hard facts to the history of the Barlow knife. Obadiah Barlow registered the trade mark of Fleur de Lys above a square in 1867. His son John had the trade mark "M" over "W" registered 1710 and his son John registered "BAR" over "LOW" in 1745. The mark of "Z" with Falchion (a curved sabre) was first registered 1723 by Samuel Barlow. It was continued by his son Samuel in 1757, then his son John in 1798 then his son Samuel in 1830, then his son-in-law Henry Mills in 1851(who ran the company Samuel Barlow till he died in 1881) then his son Henry Barlow Mills ran the same company into the 20th century.
In the 18th century the trade mark "BARLOW" was registered to a Thomas Barlow to stamp on scissors. It was not allowed to put it on knives at that time.
In 1835, 1840 and 1864 (3 different court cases) Samuel Barlow and Henry Mills claimed that Samuel Barlow senior (trade mark "Z" and Falchion) invented the Barlow knife in 1the 18th century.
Hope this is not too confusing.
Dave

[Beechtree]

There is fantastic info in this thread and I am pleased to bump it up! Here is an OLD Samuel Barlow two blade to go along with your beauty of a knife JW. There is no central liner. The springs are pressed together so tightly that at the end it is hard to tell them apart. After what could be 200 or more years it still has good snap. When I first saw the handles they appeared so cracked and worn I thought it was stag. Interestingly, on the master side of the bolster there is a faintly etched square as if in place of a shield. I do not see it on the reverse. Thanks Dave T for your insights on Samuel Barlow history.

Here is a short excerpt from "Wide Awake, Vol. 29: June, 1889. No. 1. " containing an old Samuel
Barlow label. I accessed it here
http://books.google.com/books?id=rphFAQ ... e&q&f=true

[wlf]

Thanks for the resurrection Beech,I have missed your posts. Wow,what an old piece of cutlery history.
That is a special knife.

[Dave T]

There is fantastic info in this thread and I am pleased to bump it up! Here is an OLD Samuel Barlow two blade to go along with your beauty of a knife JW. There is no central liner. The springs are pressed together so tightly that at the end it is hard to tell them apart. After what could be 200 or more years it still has good snap. When I first saw the handles they appeared so cracked and worn I thought it was stag. Interestingly, on the master side of the bolster there is a faintly etched square as if in place of a shield. I do not see it on the reverse. Thanks Dave T for your insights on Samuel Barlow history.

Here is a short excerpt from "Wide Awake, Vol. 29: June, 1889. No. 1. " containing an old Samuel
Barlow label. I accessed it here
http://books.google.com/books?id=rphFAQ ... q&f=false

Beechtree, thank you for those wonderful pictures. I have tried to access the "Wide Awake" link and I get through to the site but am unable to read anything within the book. How did you do that please? I would love to read the whole article but cannot seem to get inside it..
Was the person writing the excerpt writing in 1889? Is there any info about the size of the label please
That is a very nice old knife.

[Beechtree]

Thanks Dave,
I have edited the posting, hopefully the URL will now work. The section begins on page 439. The author is writing in the year 1889 and goes on to describe jack knives and other knives. If you can not get it to work then try searching for Wide Awake 1889.

[wlf]

Seems forgery of knives is not a new occurrence.Thanks for the link Beech.

[Dave T]

Thanks Dave,
I have edited the posting, hopefully the URL will now work. The section begins on page 439. The author is writing in the year 1889 and goes on to describe jack knives and other knives. If you can not get it to work then try searching for Wide Awake 1889.

Beechtree, sorry but I am still unable to make it work. Also the search you suggested does not give me that website. I get into the website using your URL, and I can search the book for keywords and it will tell me which page numbers my keyword is on and give me half a sentence, but it will not let me browse and read any article. I have tried to "join" but am unable to do so. It simply says "oops" with no further info. I can find no way round it I wonder if it is because I am not in USA?
I really want to see that article, particularly so after seeing the comment about forgery.

[58chevy348]

Just picked up this early Oates Barlow. From my research, the bolster with arrow, heart, and bugle dates the knife between 1820 and 1850.

[btrwtr]

Great old Barlow. A lot like the OP knfe.

[zed6309]

Glad this got resurrected as a great read , love these old Barlows history

[danno50]

Great find, 58chevy348! Appears to be in pretty good shape, considering its age.

[peanut740]

Great find