JPK Dating

[MikeA]

Having been burned twice by reproductions I am more leary now of purchases. I have seen on another forum specifically on Camillus where they say blade dated 196x-196y. I am curious as to how these dates are established? Is there a book that I need to get to help me here?

I have several 5 and 6 inch JPKs which I feel are correctly from WWII and Nam era but sure would be nice for me to nail them down closer if I could.

Can anyone point me in the right direction. I know that Camillus has stamped their blades using different formats over the years but I dont know what is what. I do have Pommels that are dated so those are excluded.

Thanks in advance,

Mike

[WelderBob]

Mike these two books are my go to on military knives....I'd be lost without them. Cole's book number 3 or 4 is still around, not sure about Military Knives by Knife World.

Frank Trzaska has a great website on military, even has pic's on fake's like the JPK...alot of good info there.

http://www.usmilitaryknives.com


Bob

[coffeecup]

A lot of dating is based on knowledge of contracts and production, at least until after the introduction of the dates stamped on the pommel. And then there are the sheath variations. . . . enough to drive a man bonkers. But there are no JPKs from WWII as the design wasn't adpoted til later.

The problems with books are that many of them have been discovered to have errors as new information comes to light, and there is nothing focusing solely on the JPK. Trzaska's site is great, but to see all the variations, and most of the fakes, in full-color glory, check out this thread on the USmilitaria forum: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ ... pic=134069

[Mossdancer]

MikeA
For the money the book that Bob showed is very good. There are a few more that get quite expensive. Especially in hard back, They do though have lifelike photo's in color.
Coffee Cup is dead on about the WWII lack of Survival Knives. There are though some Mk 1's that can really fool a person.
moss

Edit: Meant to say this in the first place but the Six inch version was dropped in 61-62 era. Went to the pommel stamp in 67. You will see some with gray paint on pommel, cant recall when that ocurred or why but it was near 1968.

If you think these drive you nuts, try collecting all of the different versions and makers of the Mk 1.

[MikeA]

Thanks for all the input. I have several knives that are dated on the Pommel for Camillus. My earliest in 1-67. I had since purchased another JPK that was advertised as pre-67 and just has Camillus NY on the blade. I do have two With Camillus on the guard and one is USMC and the other is USN. I also have some new ones still bagged up that I got from RMB and are post Nam 84 era. I did sucker into several of the Camillus with the Fancy Font (not to say they arent Camillus, just that they were sold to me as Nam era but are really post 94 according to Frank's site)


The knife in the picture has a pommel with no date And basic wording. I dont have any of the USA over Camillus.
Appreciate the responses from everyone. I think that the next gun show I go to has some Knive books that I will thumb thru.
Mike

[coffeecup]

FWIW, I've got a 6" JPK (well, most of it) with the same "CAMILLUS N.Y." marking; I'm pretty sure yours is right.

[Mossdancer]

Coffeecup:
I can lend first hand confirmation to that. This is my original Aircrew survival knife issued late summer 1961.
Moss

[jerryd6818]

Moss -- The fuller on yours is more narrow than the fuller on Mike's knife. Is that significant?

[WelderBob]

Jerry you will see difference's in these knives over the years in fullers and grinds, one has to look close but they are there.

Top to bottom...1975
1970
1967
6" peened pommel
6' screw on pommel

Bob

[jerryd6818]

I see. Differences are very subtle.

[Mossdancer]

Will be back online in a couple of days. Just heading to Portland as my wife is being transferred there from the Astoria Hospital which I took her into early this morning.
moss

[MikeA]

I hope everything is okay for you and your wife, I appreciate your input. My son-in-law is from Astoria life long. I see some of the differences that you are referring to. I now have about 6 or 8 of the Camillus JPKs but most have Pommel branding so thats why I was leary. The top swage on the Camillus on some blades are longer almost like a true period KA-BAR swage. I am basing my terminology from looking at pictures on jayfisher.com anatomy of a knife page.

I was just troubled on how the guy knew that it was pre-67 era Nam knife

The more I read the less I know and the more I want to learn.


thanks guys
Mike

[coffeecup]

Moss, best wishes for your wife!

Mike, sounds like some terminology clarification is in order. When speaking of military knives, "era" generally refers to date of manufacture. "Issue" refers to the time period when someone actually received (and presumably used) it. Then you get into "recycling" and it gets even more confusing . . . .

Per contracts: the JPK had a 6" blade and threaded pommel from the time of adoption (August '59) til June '60; a 6" blade and peened pommel from then until August '61; in both cases the maker was marked on the blade ("CAMILLUS N.Y." like the one posted by Moss). From that point until 1-67, the knives had a 5" blade and the maker was marked on the blade ("CAMILLUS N.Y." example). Pommel marking started in 1-67 BUT some were made using blades produced and marked earlier, so some are both blade marked and pommel marked. And later--roughly '89, after Camillus lost the contract for JPKs--some Camillus JPKs were blade marked "CAMILLUS N.Y. U.S.A."

The obvious problem is that any blade produced prior to a date could be (and often was) issued or used later. Any JPK with 6" blade, any 5" blade marked JPK, and 5" pommel marked JPKs dated 1-67 to the final troop withdrawal (the exact date gets argued about, but the last troops were withdrawn in March '73), could be probably be described as "Viet Nam era" (though some folks would limit this to knives made during the war).

But just because a knife is "Viet Nam era" does not mean it was issued during the war, or carried in the war. That's why you'll sometimes see comments about "Viet Nam issued" knives (and another reason to get as much provenance--information on the history of the individual knife--as you can).

I know of a couple of "Viet Nam era" JPKs that were issued--new--for the First Gulf War, while others guys in the same unit got Ontarios dated 1-86, and at least one was issued a "USA" marked Camillus (non-military production).

Then there is "recycling." (I don't know what the technical term for it is.) This happens when issue knives (usually personally owned) from earlier wars are carried in later wars; most recently personally-owned WWII/Korea/Viet Nam era knives that were carried in Iraq or Afghanistan. Some knives get handed down in families, others get chosen because they are just good knives.

Jim

[MikeA]

Thanks Coffeecup. I have never purchased a knife that had documentation for "issue and/or carry" so far. I assumed that Nam era was anything that was made during that span of time but not necessarily issued. Gets confusing. I was drafted in 66 but was 4F so never saw duty. The knife that I showed in the picture has a pommel nut and is not peened. I dont have a Camiilus NY on the blade and peened yet but am keeping my eyes open. All of my later knives have the pommel date on them. I have a long ways to go and 30 yrs too late in many respects.
I have inserted a picture of 3 Cattagarus 225Qs. The one one the far right has a entirely different pommel and is curved. Do you know if this might be a factory variation or perhaps someone has ground them down over time? The leather seems intact and original.
Appreciate all the information you guys are sharing with me and I am keeping the email data and making notes.
Mike

[coffeecup]

The leather and the washers on the Catt on the right have definitely been re-shaped after leaving the factory; it wasn't issued like that. In particular, compare the fibre washer above the crossguard on the knives on the left and the right. The washer on the left knife is close to as originally made, though the leather and pommel have also been modified, or at least "cleaned up" with a sander. The middle one doesn't look quite "right" but that may just be the miles on it.

Would a pic of a known original Catt handle help?

[MikeA]

I would love to see an ORIGINAL. At least in the future I would know what to buy. I am almost to the point of being "leary" of Epay. The prices seem driven high, I dont know if people have messed with the knives. I have bought a half dozen knives where it looks like a sander with 80 grit was used to "enhance" the knife. You cant see the grind marks until you get them home!!. I have been able to polish several now but some people just dont know how to sharpen or take care of a knife (IMO). Not everyone, but a lot of exhibitors on epay who think they are doing a world of good but making them pretty.!!!

I read of one person who only goes to estate or garage sales now because of issues found on the epay site. (not knocking it entirely as I have got a lot of stuff from there but you have to know what you are buying).

Can you provide some close up pixs? It seems I have 3 Cats with three profiles. Could the one on the far right have been done by a vet in the field??? who knows but it seems to be not even close to the two left ones!!


thanks guys -have learned a H of a lot in the last 2 wks. I just got in a PAL 35 today. I now have a 35,36 and 37. Think I will quit while I am almost ahead.
Mike

[MikeA]

Guys can you provide some pommel pictures. I have Pommels- screwed, peened and then one that what appears to be a small piece of inserted metal almost like a 1/8 inch shim driven into the pommel like a stake. It's out in the garage so I have to go get it tomorrow but it seems like I see multiple differences to afix a pommel to the tang.

Another thing I noticed on the Catt with the rounded pommel is that the font although it is identical is what I would call one size bigger or at worst it does not appear to be the same size as the other two. I would have to get out my calipers to be sure but it could be an optical illusion for me.

Appreciate it greatly,

CoffeeCup are you from Texas because we use the word BONKERS a lot here????

Mike

[coffeecup]

OK, I'm slow but eventually . . .

First up some JPK tangs. I concentrated on ends here, because that is all you really see on a JPK.

First up, the end of a Cammilus JPK dated 1-70. I'm not sure if the "flat ground" end is original; I picked the knife up from one of the members here and use it as an introductory fixed blade with Scouts.


Note how the tang was punched in the center, driving the metal outward to lock the pommel in place. This is a solid knife--to heck with "milspec", this thing is "kidspec"!

The pommel of an Ontario dated 1-86.


Paint is original. If you check out Trzaska's webpage, you can find the contract dates when paint was called for to prevent water from penetrating the pommel and rusting the tang. On this one, the rectangular tang went through the pommel and was then upset. It was never ground flush because by '86 they had things down to a science--no extra metal to grind off.

OK, that's it for JPK pommel variations I have. Cattaraugus 225Q end view:


Cattaraugus 225Q side view:


Except for wear and tear, and aging, this knife is as-issue. It was carried from the first half of '43 til sometime in late '44; after that grandpa carried an M3. I got it in '73.

[MikeA]

Thanks CC,

I would like to post some of my pics here maybe tomorrow just for reference.

Nice to have guys like you around to point out items.


Mike


This is a great forum and a nice bunch of guys to ask questions to.