Mystery Knife -- Schrade or Ulster???

[jerryd6818]

I picked up this knife on eBay last night. Not here yet of course but the seller's pictures are pretty good. There are no markings on it that I can find.

The handles give it away, so what do y'all think? Schrade 863 or Ulster 63? It appears to use the Swinden System, did Ulster use Swinden? Handles were used on both brands so that's no help.

If it's as good as it looks in the pictures, I'm seriously considering asking Mr. Williams if he would consider spit shining it up and dressing it up with some of his world famous Stag handles.

(Seller's pictures, of course.)

[tongueriver]

Jerry, you might know more about this pattern than anyone, but I can tell you that the master clip blade does not look like the Schrade blades which I have seen. The Schrade swedge and pull are less 'aggressive' or less sharply defined on my Schrade Delrin handled flat-ground knife than on the knife you show. So my guess would be Ulster. I assume that you have already ruled out Western Boulder. Herman does use nice tang stamps.

[jerryd6818]

Cal, I have yet to see a Western in the 3-5/8" length in that pattern. Here is a factory condition Schrade 863 and an Ulster 63 in very good condition for comparison.

Edit: And a second Schrade 863

[jerryd6818]

I'm leaning heavily toward Schrade. I just noticed that all the Ulsters I have (3) have a swedge on the main blade and the Schrades do not.

[dcgm4]

If you're going based on whether it has a swedge or not then I'd say it's an Ulster. It looks pretty clear to me (especially in the picture of the no name knife closed) that the master blade has a swedge. Even the second picture seems to show a swedge.

Note where the clip starts to drop. It looks to be ground for the beginnings of a swedge. It isn't flat like the Schrades.

[jerryd6818]

Good eye Dave. How many times can you look at a picture and miss an important detail. Apparently I can do it a lot.

I am using the swedge to differentiate between the two brands. None of the Schrade 863's I have sport a swedge on the main. All three of the Ulster have a swedge. Small sample but it's all I have to go on. Anyone have more definitive information on the issue? Also curious why the knife would not have a tang stamp. Etch on the blade for an SFO that wore off???

[Colonel26]

Cuz I saw that knife for sale and considered throwing my hat in the ring. But I couldn't decide what exactly it was. I'm glad you got it!

[jerryd6818]

Thanks for passing Cuz. We'll see when it gets here but I think I got it for a song and sang it myself.

[bighomer]

You guys amaze me,I bid on that knife,heck I thought it was a camillus 72 that slipped through the stamping process.

[jerryd6818]

You guys amaze me,I bid on that knife,heck I thought it was a camillus 72 that slipped through the stamping process.

Dang, BH. I'm glad you didn't bid any higher than you did.

[orvet]

The handles give it away, so what do y'all think? Schrade 863 or Ulster 63? It appears to use the Swinden System, did Ulster use Swinden? Handles were used on both brands so that's no help.

Yes, Ulster did use the Swinden system.
In 1957 there was a fire in the Walden factory where Schrade was located.
In 1958 Schrade moved into the Ulster factory on Canal Street in Ellenville.
Now you have one factory producing both Ulster & Schrade Walden and eventually the Ulster name was phased out all together.

Dave Swinden was granted the patent for his Swinden Key system in 1961.
Both the Schrade 863 and the Ulster 63 would have been made in the same factory after 1958.
It is only reasonable that they were made on the same machines, i.e.; the Swinden machinery - Schrade was the only company with that machinery, (which is logical since Dave Swinden worked for Schrade).

In many cases there are probably very few differences between the same patterns in both brands aside from the shield and tang stamp. Something like a swedge would help create the appearance of differences between the brands, just a little bit of marketing.

[Colonel26]

Cuz, I thought hard about it because it seemed in such good shape. But I wanted a sho nuff Schrade example. I'd say you did right well on that one.

[bighomer]

Jerry I didn't bid it up ,I throwed one them I'm gonna try to steal this knife while everybody is napping bids. Glad you got it.Good looking knife.

[jerryd6818]

What ever ya did, it was just right.

[thawk]

Are the blades crocus polished or glazed? I had an Ulster 63 (along with all of the Ulsters from this era I have handled) and the blades had a mirror polished finish. Schrades have a glazed finish on the open stock knives in the 60's.

[jerryd6818]

Hal, I can't tell from the seller's pictures. Maybe next week when I get it in hand???

[Shearer]

Here one to put the cat amongst the pigeons.

Grant

[jerryd6818]

Oh boy. A Schrade with a swedge. Gee thanks for muddying up the water even more there Grant. I gotta say though, that is one fine looking knife.

I just checked tracking and it hasn't made it to the post office yet. Some folks just don't seem to get in a hurry about anything. I have a cousin like that. "Oh, it'll get done." Sometimes that boy is slower than molasses in January.

[wlf]

^^ We might be cousins then Jerry. I grin.

Your collecting sounds like mine,I think it's good collecting more or less singularly. I go through the same detective work you do. History seems to be known by whoever writes it. Grinning again.

[tongueriver]

Keep in mind that in the Delrin era the Schrades and Ulsters were coming out of the same buildings.

[jerryd6818]

Keep in mind that in the Delrin era the Schrades and Ulsters were coming out of the same buildings.

Yeah, I think dotting the I's and crossing the T's on this one is going to be an exercise in futility.

Right now, I'm just waiting for the seller to get off his/her bum and take it to the post office.

[dweb1897]

This 863 EDC has the same shaped shield and a swedged clip but a longer pull

[thawk]

Here is an Ulster 63 for comparison with a Schrade NY USA. Both have a flat grind. I don't have the knives any more.