Ima wearing paisley flip flops

[MrBlister]

Got this n in a Sanford rooskie , .. .
drawer fullo glasses and knives...
wondering if anyone knows if this Schrade Cut Co
is the granpappy to the 787 Schrade Walden Rats??
Also do the secondary blade shape L@@k right ..
Got a fair lil pile o Cut Cos a goin here ..
thanks in advance...
and HET in advance

[treefarmer]

I like the looks of that one!
Treefarmer

[1967redrider]

The jigging on those old scales brings a tear to my eye.

[rea1eye]

Nice knife. Looks like a great EDC

Bob

[gsmith7158]

MrB looks like you got a Hawbaker special there. According to Sargents $950-$1250 in mint condition. Date between 1904-1938.

[MrBlister]

WOW Smith . . . i hadnt considered the Haw possiblity.. but now that
ya mention it.... i spose its poss . . . . its faaar from mint..
but it aint zero either , now is it ?
this bunch is always helpful. .

Standby next week for pics of a Schrade 2 OT won on a Quaker oats rooskie
(with cinnamon) . .. .
Thanks for all the replys . . .
and HET

***side effects can include the high steppin ka-pows !!!

[kootenay joe]

Mr B. did you look this one up in your 'new' Schrade Cut Co Catalog E ?
kj

[MrBlister]

Naaah Roland... couldnt find it in MY cut co catalog..
but ma friend Ozzie had it in his ...
dint mention hawbaker tho


HET all ya

[tongueriver]

I may not be correct here, but my understanding is that Hawbaker was a dealer who let a contract to CASE for the muskrat pattern which we associate with the name. Schrade may or may not have also furnished those knives. Otherwise, the pattern is the same, no matter who made them or who they were made for. As an aside, through a billing error, three years ago I missed out on a Schrade Cutco in that pattern which was dripping wet green MINT for a song. A digital glitch (I am being kind to the dealer, also a friend, here) lost me the knife. I am still sick about it, as I will never live long enough to see another one.

[gsmith7158]

I may not be correct here, but my understanding is that Hawbaker was a dealer who let a contract to CASE for the muskrat pattern which we associate with the name. Schrade may or may not have also furnished those knives. Otherwise, the pattern is the same, no matter who made them or who they were made for. As an aside, through a billing error, three years ago I missed out on a Schrade Cutco in that pattern which was dripping wet green MINT for a song. A digital glitch (I am being kind to the dealer, also a friend, here) lost me the knife. I am still sick about it, as I will never live long enough to see another one.

Sargents Kinves and Razors has them listed in the section on Hawbakers. Here is the excerpt. I can't seem to copy the price list.

The Hawbaker Special
Let’s get to the Hawbaker Special as we know it today.
First, no knife belongs in a Hawbaker collection that has
not been commissioned or sold by S. Stanley Hawbaker &
Sons. It’s very gratifying to the Hawbakers to know that all
knives made with this blade configuration are recognized
as “Hawbaker Specials,” but this doesn’t mean that they are
part of a Hawbaker collection.
The first knife made in this blade configuration was a
muskrat made by Schrade Cutlery Co., of Walden, New
York, sometime between 1904 and 1938. I have an example
of this in my collection; therefore, I am pretty positive
these were in existence before the Hawbaker business was.
So why don’t we just call these other knives what they are,
just muskrat knives, not “so and so” Hawbaker muskrats. I
believe that to use another man’s name to sell something is
called infringement.
We now know that S. Stanley Hawbaker & Sons sold
unmarked peachseed bone Schrade Cutlery and Schrade
Walden knives. Also there was a rough black in Schrade
Cutlery sold in his business along with first- and secondgeneration
York Cutlery knives.

So it's not really a Hawbaker, just the first Improved Muskrat.

[tongueriver]

I may not be correct here, but my understanding is that Hawbaker was a dealer who let a contract to CASE for the muskrat pattern which we associate with the name. Schrade may or may not have also furnished those knives. Otherwise, the pattern is the same, no matter who made them or who they were made for. As an aside, through a billing error, three years ago I missed out on a Schrade Cutco in that pattern which was dripping wet green MINT for a song. A digital glitch (I am being kind to the dealer, also a friend, here) lost me the knife. I am still sick about it, as I will never live long enough to see another one.

Sargents Kinves and Razors has them listed in the section on Hawbakers. Here is the excerpt. I can't seem to copy the price list.

The Hawbaker Special
Let’s get to the Hawbaker Special as we know it today.
First, no knife belongs in a Hawbaker collection that has
not been commissioned or sold by S. Stanley Hawbaker &
Sons. It’s very gratifying to the Hawbakers to know that all
knives made with this blade configuration are recognized
as “Hawbaker Specials,” but this doesn’t mean that they are
part of a Hawbaker collection.
The first knife made in this blade configuration was a
muskrat made by Schrade Cutlery Co., of Walden, New
York, sometime between 1904 and 1938. I have an example
of this in my collection; therefore, I am pretty positive
these were in existence before the Hawbaker business was.
So why don’t we just call these other knives what they are,
just muskrat knives, not “so and so” Hawbaker muskrats. I
believe that to use another man’s name to sell something is
called infringement.
We now know that S. Stanley Hawbaker & Sons sold
unmarked peachseed bone Schrade Cutlery and Schrade
Walden knives. Also there was a rough black in Schrade
Cutlery sold in his business along with first- and secondgeneration
York Cutlery knives.

Great info! That is a breath of fresh air. Was Hawbaker not a dealer who specialized in trapping supplies?

[gsmith7158]

Yes, He sold trapping and other outdoor supplies. There is an extensive section Mr. Hawbaker in Sargents book

[kootenay joe]

Mr. B.
check your catalog E, page 97 upper right corner. it shows your Improved Muskrat. This section of the catalog is the 1936 supplement. I don't see it in the earlier catalog pages so it might have been first introduced in 1936.
kj

[MrBlister]

OH YEAH ..............
I see it now . .. .
Duh ..
thanks Ro and others for the replys..


HET

[MrBlister]

Heres a discussion assertin Schrade invented "the blade pattern"
and ole Hawbaker named it for his store

OK, so there's regular muskrats with two clip blades and Hawbaker muskrats with a clip and a straight blade. Some have both blades riding on the same single backspring, some have 2 backsprings, one for each blade.

Queen makes/made muskrats in both regular and Hawbaker configurations, with both single and dual backsprings. Both for Queen knives and for other companies (like Robeson). Judging by posts in this thread they made a Improved Hawbaker" (pic are gone) with a single backspring.

The Schatt and Morgan did some "improved" Hawbaker muskrats with dual backsprings. To make things confusing though, both regular and Hawbaker muskrats use the 42125 number, and 42125s came with both single and dual backsprings (although only the dual spring Hawbakers were called "improved").

My Canal Street Hawbaker muskrat has a single backspring, and is labeled "Improved Muskrat Knife Hawbaker Special".

Old Case muskrats weren't labeled unless they were Hawbaker, where the clip blade is etched "Improved Muskrat Knife" and the wharncliffe is etched "Hawbaker's Special". All Case muskrats that I've seen use 2 backsprings (apart from the 2004 Tony Bose, which isn't labeled either as a Hawbaker or improved).

Schrade made a precious few Hawbaker muskrats, and AFAIK these weren't labeled/etched, at least not on the knife itself. And AFAIK these had a single backspring. Schrade labeled the 77OT and 787 as "Improved Muskrat" on one of the blades, but both were clip blades. And as far as I can tell these used 2 backsprings.

So I'm completely confused. There's 4 possibilities...

Single backspring, 2 clip blades
Single backspring, Hawbaker blades
Dual backspring, 2 clip blades
Dual backspring, Hawbaker blades

...and all have examples that are called "improved".

There's also plenty of regular old muskrats with 2 clip blades and either a single or dual backsprings that are apparently unimproved, but look just like the "improved" ones.

[MrBlister]

and heres a plethera of data from
OUR OWN archives . . . This one
seems MOST informative ...

http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... hp?t=26285

HET

[gsmith7158]

Hawbaker Special Muskrats Price Guide
Maker Handle Material
Number
Made
Tang Stampings
and Dates
Tang
Stampings and
Dates
Blade Etching Value
Schrade Cutlery
Co.
Peach Seed
Jigged Bone
? Schrade Cut Co Schrade Cut Co No Etch – Front or Back Blades $1,000
Schrade Cutlery
Co.
Peach Seed
Jigged Bone
? Schrade Cut Co Schrade Cut Co
Front Blade Etched “Dailey’s
Skinning Knife”- No Etch Back
Blade
$1,200
Schrade Cutlery
Co.
Rough Black
Comp
? Schrade Cut Co Schrade Cut Co No Etch – Front or Back Blades $900
Schrade Cutlery
Co.
Peach Seed
Jigged Bone
? Schrade Walden None
Front Blade Etch “Improved
Muskrat Knife” – No Etch Back
Blade
$950
York Cutlery Co.
Jigged Brown
Bone
1,738 York Cutlery Co York Cutlery Co
Variety I – Both Blades Have Deep
Etch
$950
Variety II – Both Blades Have Light
Etch
$950
W.R. Case & Sons Jigged Bone 1,186 CASE XX CASE XX
Variety I - Bone is Coarse Jigged
– Few Made
$2,200
Variety II – Bone is Fine Jigged $2,000
W.R. Case & Sons Jigged Bone ? CASE XX CASE XX USA
Very Rare – Only One Known To
Exist
$2,500
W.R. Case & Sons Jigged Bone 924 CASE XX USA CASE XX USA Straight USA Hawbaker $1,500
W.R. Case & Sons Jigged Bone 282 CASE XX USA 10 Dot - 1970 USA to 10 Dot Transition $1,000
10 Dot - 1970 CASE XX USA 10 Dot to USA Transition $1,500
10 Dot - 1970 10 Dot - 1970 Straight 10 Dot Hawbaker $1,500
W.R. Case & Sons Jigged Bone 182 CASE XX USA 9 Dot – 1971
Very Rare – Only One Known To
Exist
$2,200
9 Dot - 1971 CASE XX USA
Very Rare – Only One Known To
Exist
$2,200
10 Dot - 1970 9 Dot - 1971 10 Dot to 9 Dot Transition $1,500
9 Dot – 1971 10 Dot – 1970 9 Dot to 10 Dot Transition $1,200
W.R. Case & Sons Jigged Bone 300 9 Dot – 1971 9 Dot - 1971 Straight 9 Dot Hawbaker $500
W.R. Case & Sons Jigged Bone 311 8 Dot - 1972 7 Dot- 1973 8 Dot to 7 Dot Transition $325
6 8 Dot - 1972 7 Dot- 1973
Unfi nished & Unsharpened – Has
No Blade Etching
$400
W.R. Case & Sons Delrin 1,242 8 Dot - 1972 7 Dot- 1973
Very Rare – Only One Known To
Exist
$650

Here is the price guide from Sargents. The Schrade Cut Co. Impproved Muskrats are listed at the top. Two examples are listed with engraved blades and peachseed jigging.

[kootenay joe]

"Improved Muskrat" is a marketing term. As Mr. B. has shown it can stand for whatever a knife company wants as long as it is a Muskrat pattern. Knife companies have a history of messing with knife terminology, the most egregious being Case's "Half Whittler" which is not possible.
Does anyone think the prices given by Sargent are even close to accurate now ? The relative ranking is likely accurate but i see the prices given to be 2-3x 'reality'. However i rarely deal in the knife stratosphere so please correct me if i am wrong.
kj

[gsmith7158]

You are correct Kj. Price guides are virtually useless but it does give you a perspective on the chronology of the production of the knives which I thought was interesting.

[kootenay joe]

Greg, it is an interesting list of the Hawbakers, worth printing off and keeping. I have never seen all these knives in the same list so it is very helpful.
I was trying to ask what the current prices are, hoping someone who is familiar with this pattern and knows approximate market value might post.
Maybe i don't shop in the right places but i rarely see a folding knife go over $500. However since i shop mostly ebay maybe it's like a guy wondering where the Ferarri parts are in Wal-Mart.
kj

[gsmith7158]

Greg, it is an interesting list of the Hawbakers, worth printing off and keeping. I have never seen all these knives in the same list so it is very helpful.
I was trying to ask what the current prices are, hoping someone who is familiar with this pattern and knows approximate market value might post.
Maybe i don't shop in the right places but i rarely see a folding knife go over $500. However since i shop mostly ebay maybe it's like a guy wondering where the Ferarri parts are in Wal-Mart.
kj

Kj, I am not really familiar with the Schrade Cut Co. prices but I do have a 1977 Case Hawbaker that I paid $200 for which is $75 less than Sargents book value so there you go.