old bayonet

[wiseguy]

Hey folks , I got this in a lot of knives...… any info would be great ! click on the pictures, they get better

[richard]

its a Early 19th-century offset spiked socket bayonet.
These bayonets would have to have been used to take down horses.
the bayonet made a triangular hole, and the resulting wound was particularly hard to close and patch up.
they were banned. but still used.

[wiseguy]

Thanks Richard. Are these valuable ?

[richard]

i sold one last month for $60 in good condition
that one is badly cracked, i would say $25 /$30

[wiseguy]

Thanks again

[zzyzzogeton]

The triangular/spike bayonet was never banned or made illegal. The British were making the No. 4 spike bayo during WW2 and they were used until the 1950s. The French were still using the Lebel spike and the Russians were still using the Mosin-Nagant spike through WW2. The Russian SKS had folding spike and blade bayonets, some of which are still in use, and the Chinese were using the Type 56 and Type 63 SKS spikes up to the 1980s or even later.

They fell out of favor due to reducing the amount of equipment carried. A spike/triangular bayonet is useless for anything other than as a bayonet on the end of a rifle, hence the development of the yataghan/sword blade, bolo blade and knife blade bayonets, allowing the bayonet to be used for non-bayonet charge or non-pike formation tasks. Not that most bayonets were very useful due to being too long for casual tasks.

Your particular bayonet is not very valuable, per se, due to the crack in the neck, UNLESS yours turns out to be an ultrarare, seldom if ever seen version.

To identify a specific triangular bayonet requires several measurements and clear pics of any marks and of the locking slot/rings. Any marks present could help identify the country of manufacture/usage, which would help narrow down which rifle/musket it went with.

Measurements needed for ID purposes -
ID of socket
OD of the socket
Overall length
Socket length
Width of the socket locking ring (if present)
Blade length from tip to front of the neck
Height of the neck from the top of the blade to the bottom of the barrel ring
Width of the blade at the widest point near the neck

The books may not have every one of these measurements for every bayonet, as some may not specify the OD or the max width or ring length or.... but the more measurements the better as identifying an unidentified triangular/spike bayonet requires matching as many clues as possible to eliminate and/or include possible versions.

Even with all measurements, identification may not be possible as in addition to the mass manufactured versions, many were locally made to specs for a particular rifle/musket.

[Gunsil]

its a Early 19th-century offset spiked socket bayonet.
These bayonets would have to have been used to take down horses.
the bayonet made a triangular hole, and the resulting wound was particularly hard to close and patch up.
they were banned. but still used.

Take down horses?? They were used against people, not horses. They were never banned, they were just replaced by bladed bayonets with similar length blades and then those were replaced by our modern bayonets with shorter blades that are also useful as trench or fighting knives. Our military (USA) used triangular bayonets right up to the late 1800s when the 45-70 rifles were replaced by the Krag .30 Gov't cartridge rifles which used a more modern bayonet with a normal edge. Krags were also sometimes fitted with rare "bowie' and "bolo" bayonets.

[wiseguy]

ID on socket neck marked 829> , OD of sockets is 1 inch , overall length is approx. 22 3/8 , socket length 3.1/16 inch , width of socket ring is 3/16 inch , from tip to neck approx.19 3/16 , Height of the neck from the top of the blade to the bottom of the barrel ring is approx.2.5/8 ,Width of the blade at the widest point near the neck 7/8''.

The triangular/spike bayonet was never banned or made illegal. The British were making the No. 4 spike bayo during WW2 and they were used until the 1950s. The French were still using the Lebel spike and the Russians were still using the Mosin-Nagant spike through WW2. The Russian SKS had folding spike and blade bayonets, some of which are still in use, and the Chinese were using the Type 56 and Type 63 SKS spikes up to the 1980s or even later.

They fell out of favor due to reducing the amount of equipment carried. A spike/triangular bayonet is useless for anything other than as a bayonet on the end of a rifle, hence the development of the yataghan/sword blade, bolo blade and knife blade bayonets, allowing the bayonet to be used for non-bayonet charge or non-pike formation tasks. Not that most bayonets were very useful due to being too long for casual tasks.

Your particular bayonet is not very valuable, per se, due to the crack in the neck, UNLESS yours turns out to be an ultrarare, seldom if ever seen version.

To identify a specific triangular bayonet requires several measurements and clear pics of any marks and of the locking slot/rings. Any marks present could help identify the country of manufacture/usage, which would help narrow down which rifle/musket it went with.

Measurements needed for ID purposes -
ID of socket
OD of the socket
Overall length
Socket length
Width of the socket locking ring (if present)
Blade length from tip to front of the neck
Height of the neck from the top of the blade to the bottom of the barrel ring
Width of the blade at the widest point near the neck

The books may not have every one of these measurements for every bayonet, as some may not specify the OD or the max width or ring length or.... but the more measurements the better as identifying an unidentified triangular/spike bayonet requires matching as many clues as possible to eliminate and/or include possible versions.

Even with all measurements, identification may not be possible as in addition to the mass manufactured versions, many were locally made to specs for a particular rifle/musket.

[zzyzzogeton]

Actually, Gunsil, the original purpose of the bayonet was to allow for the formation of the "anti-cavalry" infantry square with a pike wall without pikes after the development of the musket.

The initial bayonets were "plug" bayonets which actually stuck down the barrel, making the musket unable to be fired. Since they were so slow in reloading, the use of the musket was relegated to a single volley followed by an immediate insertion of the bayonet to repel the cavalry charge while the 2nd and subsequent lines of the square tried to reload before the pike square broke.

The offset socket bayonet was developed to allow muskets (and later rifles) to be reloaded with the bayonet in place, although the slow reloading speed slowed down even more with the bayonet in place.

The triangular bayonet was stronger than early blade bayonets and safer for reloading with the bayonet in place - no sharp edges for knuckles to be cut during ramming.

There was a mindset off how long a rifle/bayonet combination should be for effective use as a pike against cavalry charges.

The development of the machine gun killed the cavalry charge (literally ) and WW2 jungle warfare shortened the then popular 16" (or so) sword bayonets prevailing at the time. - The MK1ModE which took the MK1 from 16" down to 10", the shorter MK4, the Brit No. 4 spike, etc.

[zzyzzogeton]

The length of the blade is longer than any US bayonet in my list. Lack of a US on the top of the blade makes it very unlikely that it is a mid-1800s US bayonet. Will have to do some book diving.

A picture of the slot in the socket (if there is one) would help.

[zzyzzogeton]

I think that it's a Prussian M1809 Flintlock musket bayonet.

I blew up the pic of the socket and I can see no evidence of a mortise slot in the rim of the socket, implying no mortise/slot in the socket.

With no slot and that little notch in the left rim of the socket butt, the dimensions are really closes to the M1809. The M1839 had slightly different dimensions.

Collectors of the muskets frequently call the musket "the Potsdam musket" although the rifles were made at a half dozen arsenals in Prussia, including Potsdam, up until 1839, when the M1839 started production.

The US source of these bayonets (and muskets) came from the Union purchase of 165,000 obsolete Prussian arms, mainly old M1809 muskets in 1861. Most of them saw service in "the Western Theater", whatever that means.

Most of the M1809s were pulled from usage by the end of 1862 after rifles started becoming available.

IF it was complete w/ scabbard and frog, it could be worth as much as $100 to $140.

With a scabbard but no frog, $75 to $100.

No scabbard, $50 to $75 tops. There's a heavily rusted/corroded one without a scabbard that has been on fleabay for several months sitting at $75.

No scabbard, with cracked neck - $20 to $25, which is the most I'd offer to a seller.

As with any edged weapons, condition helps determine value.

Now, all those prices go out the window on fleabay if there are no betters ones available and a pair of dingle berries with more money than sense get into a bidding war over it.

[richard]

its a Early 19th-century offset spiked socket bayonet.
These bayonets would have to have been used to take down horses.
the bayonet made a triangular hole, and the resulting wound was particularly hard to close and patch up.
they were banned. but still used.

Take down horses?? They were used against people, not horses. They were never banned, they were just replaced by bladed bayonets with similar length blades and then those were replaced by our modern bayonets with shorter blades that are also useful as trench or fighting knives. Our military (USA) used triangular bayonets right up to the late 1800s when the 45-70 rifles were replaced by the Krag .30 Gov't cartridge rifles which used a more modern bayonet with a normal edge. Krags were also sometimes fitted with rare "bowie' and "bolo" bayonets.

There are issues though with the Triangular Bayonet; the wound left behind is a triangular shape. ... According to the Geneva Convention of 1949: That a ban is placed on serrated and angular bayonets, because the wounds left behind place undue suffering that persists even after the conflict has been resolved.

[LongBlade]

I think that it's a Prussian M1809 Flintlock musket bayonet.

I blew up the pic of the socket and I can see no evidence of a mortise slot in the rim of the socket, implying no mortise/slot in the socket.

With no slot and that little notch in the left rim of the socket butt, the dimensions are really closes to the M1809. The M1839 had slightly different dimensions.

Collectors of the muskets frequently call the musket "the Potsdam musket" although the rifles were made at a half dozen arsenals in Prussia, including Potsdam, up until 1839, when the M1839 started production.

The US source of these bayonets (and muskets) came from the Union purchase of 165,000 obsolete Prussian arms, mainly old M1809 muskets in 1861. Most of them saw service in "the Western Theater", whatever that means.

Most of the M1809s were pulled from usage by the end of 1862 after rifles started becoming available.

IF it was complete w/ scabbard and frog, it could be worth as much as $100 to $140.

With a scabbard but no frog, $75 to $100.

No scabbard, $50 to $75 tops. There's a heavily rusted/corroded one without a scabbard that has been on fleabay for several months sitting at $75.

No scabbard, with cracked neck - $20 to $25, which is the most I'd offer to a seller.

As with any edged weapons, condition helps determine value.

Now, all those prices go out the window on fleabay if there are no betters ones available and a pair of dingle berries with more money than sense get into a bidding war over it.

Thanks zzyzzogeton for the very informative post on the bayonet ... For me it was indeed educational in a part of knife collecting that I know nothing about and in truth while I don't collect bayonets at all I quite enjoy learning about all aspects of 'knifing" ... Out here in NE I have seen many bayonets for sale and though I still probably would not buy one I would like to know what I am looking at many times... When I first saw this question I was hoping you would come along as I had seen your interest and knowledge regarding these in other posts... I'm just an innocent bystander in this thread but again thanks for taking the time to share ..

[conslade]

Try this web site. Full of good information.
worldbayonets.com

[doglegg]

ZZ you are tops (pun intended) in the bayonet field. Wow very informative. A lot of research, thanks.