Camillus GENUINE STAG?? Help!!!!

[ratlesnake75]

Hey GUYS, I have this BIG 4 1/4" Closed Stockman w/ Genuine Stag & milled liners both top & bottom that came from a collection. I do know that Genuine Stag is pretty Scarce in Camillus & was curious what you Camillus Guru's thought about it. Is there any mentioning in Camillus catalogs about genuine stag?
I appreciate ALL OF YOU
Kindest Regards & Blessings,
Mark

[orvet]

Can you read the tang stamp?
Does it have the word 'Cutlery' or 'Cut' in the stamp?

[ratlesnake75]

Hey Dale, I am very sorry as I thought I posted an up-close pic but I forgot too, lol
It says Camillus Cutlery Co Camillus, NY USA
Kindest Regards,
Mark

[orvet]

Because that handle has stag I would say that is probably well before World War II. Conventional wisdom has 4 line Tang stamp ending at the end of World War II, I think it actually ended closer to the start of the war but I have to to do some research yet to substantiate that.
In any case I would say that knife was probably made earlier in the 1930s, perhaps even in the late 1920s. But then again I have yet to established to my own satisfaction the beginning date of the 4 line tang stamp.
I used to think it was around 1932 through 1945, but I have seen some things recently that make me think the 4 line stamp was used earlier than 1932 and that it was possibly discontinued two or three years prior to the end of the war. That's my working Theory that I have yet to prove.
Hope this doesn't muddy the waters is too much.

[Gunsil]

Dale, all the WW2 military issue Camillus knives carry the "four line" stamp. I have had WW1 era Camillus navy knives also with the four line mark. The Camillus early three line mark was supposedly discontinued after 1916. I think Mark's knife is original and correct in stag. I consider four line to be 1917-1945 although there may be a year or two leeway but I don't think so if the Camillus guys are correct regarding the early three lines to end in 1916.

[carrmillus]

......I don't ever remember seeing a Camillus with stag handles-but my memory is getting a lot older!!!........... ........................

[jerryd6818]

Ahh the challenge of dating Camillus knives through the years. Something to keep those of you who are curious and have nothing else to do, busy.

[Colonel26]

I have no idea about the date, but I LOVE that knife, stag or no. I had no idea Camillus made a stockman that size other than the MUCH later 89! And square bolsters to boot! My favorite stockman configuration. Well done on that find.

[Mumbleypeg]

Mark that's a really nice score! A real beauty and great size for doin some real work. You can't beat those old Camillus for quality and steel.

Ken

[ratlesnake75]

Thanks Guys for all the Wonderful Compliments! I too couldn't recall seeing a Genuine stag Camillus before this one. I am very pleased with it & cant believe the heftiness it has,,,it is one chunk of a knife. I will have Shana get some better pics.
One of my good friends is a Camillus collector & only has a COUPLE Genuine Stag Knives in his collection. I didnt get any close-up pics yet but I will try to get some. Both are lock-backs.
Kindest Regards,
Mark

[Gunsil]

Gotta love those milled nickel liners too!!! Likely an early 20s knife when they were still making knives better than Case and a lot of others. Premium quality for sure.

[orvet]

Dale, all the WW2 military issue Camillus knives carry the "four line" stamp. I have had WW1 era Camillus navy knives also with the four line mark. The Camillus early three line mark was supposedly discontinued after 1916. I think Mark's knife is original and correct in stag. I consider four line to be 1917-1945 although there may be a year or two leeway but I don't think so if the Camillus guys are correct regarding the early three lines to end in 1916.

First, let me say; “I believe Mark’s knife is original and correct in stag also.”

If you are right (and I think you may be), that the four-line stamp was used from 1917-1945 I think there is also another possibility; that Camillus used three line and four-line tang stamps in the same time period.

The 1932 George Washington penknife has a three-line tang stamp.

1932 Camillus Geo Washington tang.jpg (37.41 KiB) Viewed 6118 times

The 1933 world’s fair commemorative knife has the classic four-line tang stamp.

1933 Worlds Fair knife Cam Tang.jpg (26.21 KiB) Viewed 6118 times

I know from my conversations with Tom Williams that the tang stamps were not tightly controlled Camillus. They had a shelf that had tang stamps on it and when they were finished using them, if they weren’t totally used up they were placed back on the shelf. He said it was not unusual for someone to grab the wrong tang stamp and start stamping a run of blades before it was discovered.
In a situation like that what does a company do? They use the mis-stamped blades because the steel from which the blades are made is expensive! Until people starting collecting knives in the 70s and later, no one, least of all the factory, cared if the tang stamp was last month’s tang stamp, last year’s tang stamp or if the tang stamp was 30 years old.


This following quote is from my notes of December 29, 2012. On that day Tom Williams and I had exchanged several emails and talked on the telephone as well. These quotes are from his emails that day.
“I was thinking about our conversations about dating Camillus knives by the tang stamps. I think the best way to describe the way that Camillus used the different stampings is to say that they overlapped. A new tang stamp would be introduced while older stampings were still in use. A new stamping may be introduced when a new line of knives was first offered or an old tang stamp wore out. Usually there were no records to indicate when stampings were changed. Sometimes a run of knives were produced and more than one tang stamp may show up on the knives. There may have been a shortage of blades to complete an order so a box of blades with an older tang stamp may be used.”

“Remember when the older knives were made there was not many knife collectors as there are today. During WWII the objective was to get the knives made and shipped to the servicemen that needed them as soon as possible. Interest in collecting WWII military knives came long after the war was over. Because of shortages and rationing, whatever was available was used.”





Email from Tom - 3/22/14 The knives time is referencing in this email are the MIL-K US Military knives that are dated annually.
“We never threw anything away at Camillus and the factory may have actually made a large run of blades in 1961 that ended up being used in the contract knives made in 1962. If we blanked out 100,000 dated spear blades at the end of 1961 they would have been used in knives made in 1962. At Camillus we did not switch over to the new date stamp on January 1st. The change over may coincide with a military contract, when the date stamp was changed to blank new blades, no older blades were available, an older stamp wore out and a new one was ordered, etc. I frequently checked to see when the knives with the new date were coming through the factory because knife collectors wanted to get a knife from every year so I kept track of the change over. I remember one year that we had either a lot of blades left from the previous year or we had not received many orders for this knife and the new dated knives did not appear until August or September. That was the latest change over that I can recall.”

I’m sorry if this is a little disjointed from the long quotes so allow me to restate my hypothesis.
I believe it is highly likely that Camillus used multiple tang stamps between the end of World War I and the end of World War II.
I don’t believe there were good controls over the tang stamps. It was easy for someone to mistakenly (or intentionally) use an incorrect tang stamp for the time in which the knives were made.
Given the fact that blades were stamped in batches and that batch may not be used up for months (or years?), it is highly unlikely that we can accurately date Camillus knives by the tang stamps.

For our newer members who may not be familiar with Tom Williams;
Tom worked for Camillus Cutlery for 30 years, until Camillus closed in 2007. Tom was in a wheelchair so he didn’t work on the production floor but interacted a lot with customers via phone. He was also the official historian for Camillus Cutlery. Tom was very passionate about the history of Camillus Cutlery and he went to great lengths to share his knowledge and resources with as many people as he could. It is largely because of his efforts that we have so much Camillus information on Larry Vickery’s wonderful site http://www.collectors-of-camillus.us/
Tom Williams was a member of AAPK until his passing in 2014.

Tom was a fountain of information about Camillus Cutlery and Camillus knives. I shared some of my notes from a telephone interview with Tom in 2010 in this following post: viewtopic.php?f=63&t=16356&p=143997&hil ... ew#p143997

You will note in this particular interview that Tom gives the starting date for the Sword Brand name as 1906.

[Gunsil]

The WW1 Camillus navy knives have the four line stamp with the sword brand stamp on the reverse. I have had a bunch of the early three lines knives with the arched mark on the small blade or blades and have never seen one of those with a sword brand mark. I think the Washiington knife shown merely has the USA worn off and is actually a four liner. I have seen one of those in near mint and it was four line. I am willing to believe pretty much what Mr. Williams had to say about 50s-60s knives and newer but I am not sure he had any positive info on pre-war knives or it would now be written in stone. There are surely many things that will never be proven regarding dates and stamps, they were as stated never recorded for future reference by a bunch of data hungry collectors a hundred years down the line. Next time I'm in Camillus I'll stop by the little museum there and ask Mr. Wallace why the 1916 end date for the early three line knives seems to be accepted. I did see a Sherwood whittler last time I was up there, the earliest mark on knives sold by the company founder. I think the four line through WW2 is plausible and probable, Camillus made TONS of knives for the military for that war but I do not know if they continued making pocket knives for the civilian market during that time. Being one who likes the really old American knives like NYK, Southington, American Knife and Shear, etc where there is very little date/marking info, a few years one way or another on more modern companies like Case, KA-BAR, and Camillus doesn't bother me much.

[ratlesnake75]

Everything you guys said makes total sense too me also. I appreciate the extra time & effort in explaining some of these details as it not only HELPS ME but also many other Knife guys who enjoy the History & Camillus knives. Seeing this information written down also helps it stick to our memory. Thank you!!!
Kindest Regards,
Mark

[carrmillus]

Thanks Guys for all the Wonderful Compliments! I too couldn't recall seeing a Genuine stag Camillus before this one. I am very pleased with it & cant believe the heftiness it has,,,it is one chunk of a knife. I will have Shana get some better pics.
One of my good friends is a Camillus collector & only has a COUPLE Genuine Stag Knives in his collection. I didnt get any close-up pics yet but I will try to get some. Both are lock-backs.
Kindest Regards,
Mark

.....second knife to the left of the "twelve o'clock high" knife-is that a sleeveboard whittler????.......... .........................

[ratlesnake75]

Hey Carrmillus, Looks like a medium cigar jack too me bubba
Kindest Regards,
Mark

[orvet]

The WW1 Camillus navy knives have the four line stamp with the sword brand stamp on the reverse. I have had a bunch of the early three lines knives with the arched mark on the small blade or blades and have never seen one of those with a sword brand mark. I think the Washiington knife shown merely has the USA worn off and is actually a four liner. I have seen one of those in near mint and it was four line

Your thought that the George Washington penknife from 1932 might have the USA worn off of them got me to thinking. Sometime back I purchased a 60 X magnifying lens for my cell phone camera. It is a lighted field microscope the clips over the camera lens opening on your cell phone.

With a little work I was able to get fairly decent pictures of the tang stamps of the George Washington pen knives I have, I have four of them.

The first picture shows the four knives, numbered one through four from the upper left of the lower right.
I will post them in order.
I could be wrong, but I don't see any evidence of excessive wear on these four tangs that would indicate the last line of the tang stamp, (the U.S.A.), had been worn off.

Am I missing something?

Has the last line of these four tang stamps been worn off?

#1

#2

#3

#4

[Gunsil]

Great little lens! You seem to be correct here, it is very interesting to see a three line mark on a knife made in 1932. I am away on vacation for a few weeks and do not have access to my knives. Now I will have to look closely at the early three line marked knives and inspect the stamps carefully to see if there are different styles of lettering or something that is different.

[orvet]

That sounds good. I expect the whole issue of Camillus tang stamps is far more complex than we first imagined.
Enjoy your vacation!

Regarding the clip on 60 X magnifier; it was about $10 or less on eBay. You are right is a great lens.

[ratlesnake75]

Absolutely Fascinating information!! I completely agree Mr. Dale that Camillus tang stamps are indeed a learning mystery & its quite FUN to try & figure them out
Kindest Regards,
Mark

[ratlesnake75]

Hey Dale, I would like to add a little more mystery to your Washington pen knives. I remember seeing one mint in the original box,,,it was a Reproduction made in the 70s if memory serves correctly. I will go & see if I can find a picture on the internet about it.
I just found a picture of it & the stamping,,,You can sure tell its Newer,,,sorry for the confusion on my part..
Kindest Regards,
Mark