This 25 OT is a little ODD....

[Meridian_Mike]

I saw this 25 OT out in the bay so I decided to fish it in. The price was right for a knife this size with full blades, so I got it.
Well, while taking a better look (LOL) at the sellers pics, I noticed something. The tang stamp said "Schrade Walden" but it looked funny.
Forgive the bad pics.... these are sellers pics....
But here is the tang stamp..... The "SCHRADE" is over "WALDEN" and that is over "NY USA"
And the number "25OT" is on the pile side of the tang....

The only 25OT stamps I have ever seen up until this one is "SCHRADE-WALDEN" in a line over "N.Y. U.S.A." and then the "25OT" is under that on the same side.
Line this....

Is this maybe one of the very early ones?
Has anyone else ever seen this type of stamp on the early Old Timers (other than the 2 OT)?
This is really like the tang stamp that is on the 2 OT...

SCHRADE
WALDEN
NY USA

and

2OT
on opposite side...


What do y'all think?

[tongueriver]

This boxed set knife is tang-stamped the same way as your new "odd" one. Dale says the pattern first appeared in 1964 catalog. I think my set was made before 1970 and possibly even in 1964, because of the sheath, which I think is an early one, and the hinged box.

[Meridian_Mike]

COOL!
Very nice boxed set you have there Cal!!
And that sheath sure is unusual..... NICE!

[Meridian_Mike]

This snip from the 1964 catalog says these boxed knives had "meerschaum bone" handles....
REALLY??
Does yours have bone handles Cal?

[kootenay joe]

I think there was a period of time when Schrade-Walden used the term "meerschaum bone" to describe more than 1 type of handle material. Perhaps it was a marketing term rather than a specific material ? Schrade collectors have never been able to agree on exactly which handles are meerschaum bone perhaps because it was 'loosely' used.
Delrin came in to use in 1960 so by 1964 when the 25OT began Delrin was used for the handles.
If someone knows exactly what meerschaum bone refers to or can post a picture of a meerschaum bone handled knife, it would be very helpful.
kj

[jxr1197]

After bovine supplies dwindled Schrade went all the way to Africa to search for a new type of bone. The Meerschaum is a cousin to the Meerkat but are only found on the planes of the Serengeti where they hunt in packs and have been known to take down lions 400 times their size. The indigenous Maasai people of northern Tanzania have been trapping these nocturnal mammals for centuries and selling their coveted bone to cutlers around the world but sadly the Meerschaum have been known to coordinate retaliatory strikes and many a tribesman has been heard screaming while being dragged off into the night by a thousand crazed Meerschaum. The frenzied animals look almost possessed with glowing red eyes and can be heard shrieking from 5 miles away while devouring their victim. It’s how they got their nickname – the Tanzanian Devil. They say if you ever see one don’t look it in the eye and never show one a Meerschaum-handled knife.
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Ok, it's just a marketing term. It was used to describe both plastic AND bone handles and I personally believe it just refers to the colors of the material - like an old meerschaum pipe.

[kootenay joe]

Quote Jason: "Ok, it's just a marketing term. It was used to describe both plastic AND bone handles and I personally believe it just refers to the colors of the material "
Neat, this is the first time i have read a post that says it was a marketing term and applied to more than one handle material even though this is what i proposed above, i was not sure i was correct.
What a lot of confusion Meerschaum Bone has caused collectors about 50-60 years after it's debut.
kj

[Meridian_Mike]

LOL.... Jason...
I love your story!

I too always thought meerschaum was a material which was like a type of soft rock that was mined from one area of the world to make fine smoking pipe bowls.
.
One thing for sure..... If I EVER come across the path of a meerschaum, I dang sure won't look straight into his eyes....

[Doc B]

Interesting thread. I have no clue, on what Meerschaum bone is, in relation to Schrade knives.
Although I've never really been a pipe smoker...when I was stationed in Turkey, I picked up a few Meerschaum pipes. Labor was cheap and you could pick them up at fractions of what they cost, in the States. They are valued for their light weight, cool burning and artistic value. As they are used, they take on an amber color, much like the dark chess pieces below.
Mike, you are right on Meerschaum being a mined "mineral"; although, it is of organic / sedimentary origin; basically found in a single region of Turkey. I don't know about the time-frame that the knives were made...but, Meerschaum, now, can't be exported in "raw" form. It is protected, to protect the artisans of the region. In the front, of the top picture...you can see two pieces of raw meerschaum.
I'm sure you could make handles from it; but,It would probably break and chip much easier than bone. Smoothed areas are very slick to my touch and probably wouldn't make a good handle for a working knife. It certainly could be jigged. Smooth, it would probably look good on a gentleman's knife...approaching ivory in appearance.
I don't know it's ability to absorb dye...the dark chess pieces appear to be "torched". From the non-detailed, black and white advertisement...I'd place my doubts on it being real meerschaum.
I've never seen the word "meerschaum" used as a color. In today's truth-in-advertising world...I don't think it would pass the "muster" test. It certainly leads you to believe it's meerschaum.
Personally, I think the best selling point is that they are : "impressivly gift boxed in true "he-man" fashion."

[Meridian_Mike]

Those are all some beautiful hand crafted pieces you have Doc!
The antique store I used to frequent had some meerschaum pipes. I never got one but I always admired the artistry in the bowls.
My sister's husband does smoke a pipe and as SHE has told me, the meerschaum bowls grow darker as they are used. Hence, one that starts out almost white will have a deep, rich brown that shows many years of use. A "manly" thing, I guess.
.
I suppose the "color" of the Old Timer scales was supposed to reflect that "deep, rich" color of a well used meerschaum pipe. (?)

[jxr1197]

I misspoke in my previous post. I went and looked over the flyers again and can not find any examples where real bone is described as Meerschaum but I did find two different kinds of plastic that were both 'Meerschaum'. As you'll see in the pics below they didn't follow any rules when it came to adjectives. They took more of a mad libs approach to it.


Starting in 1961 both the Schrade flyer (cosrus) and the Belknap catalog show the 8OT as being Genuine Bone which is literally what they were. The Primble knife added 'Stag' - so it was Genuine Bone Stag.

1961 is also the first year I can find Meerschaum mentioned and it's on the new 50OT and 58OT. The flyer (cosrus) calls it Meerschaum Bone but the actual material is the un-named solid brown plastic with gold and copper glitter in it as provided by Crown Plastics.

This 1963 flyer (cosrus) shows the 8OT covered in Meerschaum Bone and by this point it was Delrin.

In the next two pics from the 1967 Belknap catalog we see the 935 and 933 Primbles (8OT and 108OT) covered in Meerschaum Plastic and then an 8OT in Meerschaum Plastic along with a 34OT in Meerschaum Unbreakable Plastic.

The 1970 Belknap catalog offers the 935 in a hinged box with Meerschaum Bone handles but if you order the knives without the box they're 25 cents cheaper and come in Bone Stag. Of course both are Delrin. Adding to the confusion is the use of Bone Stag for Delrin because Bone Stag was also used in the description of older Schrade knives with actual bone handles. The same page shows the 933 in Meerschaum Plastic.

[Meridian_Mike]

1961 is also the first year I can find Meerschaum mentioned and it's on the new 50OT and 58OT. The flyer (cosrus) calls it Meerschaum Bone but the actual material is the un-named solid brown plastic with gold and copper glitter in it as provided by Crown Plastics.

so.....
in 1961 the 50 OT and the 58 OT was produced by Ulster.
according to the flyer..... the 50 OT had 2 blades and the 58 OT had 3 blades.
I have a stack of 58 OTs but I have never seen a 50 OT.

[jxr1197]

I have never seen a 50 OT.

They're not easily found. Far, FAR rarer than the 2OT.

[Meridian_Mike]

More rare than the 2 OT.....

[kootenay joe]

Jason, thank you for doing this 'research' and posting the Meerschaum flyers for us to see & read. This thread is now the only place i know that gives any explanation of what "Meerschaum Bone" is.
It is odd that in 1961 they used the words "Meerschaum Bone" for a plastic handle. Were the retail buyers expecting a bone handle ? I would have.
Are you sure that Meerschaum Bone always referred to plastic handles, never to actual bone ?
A possibly connected term is "Bonite" which is a plastic used by Schrade for knife handles prior to Delrin (i.e. before 1960). Maybe "Bonite" was another word used for "Meerschaum Bone" ? Or a completely different plastic ?
kj

[jxr1197]

I know Bonite was in heavy rotation in Ulster catalogs but the only Schrade reference I can think of is the 300 series knives. Maybe there were others. I’ve always thought of Meerschaum in the same light as Bonite or Staglon, or even the jigged plastic covers they would call Stagged in the catalogs – a clever way of not saying plastic. As far as I know Meerschaum wasn’t used to describe real bone. It’s Schrade so of course there’s going to be an exception. At the 1959 sales meeting (Dec 1958) the 2OT was introduced to the sales force and they did call it Meerschaum Bone – but that wasn’t something that made it to the catalogs or flyers. Ironically at that same meeting they announced that they were doing away with plastic handles and going back to genuine bone. Boy, were they wrong about that!

[Meridian_Mike]

I think you have hit on another good point Roland.
By saying "meerschaum bone" the buyers were expecting "BONE" even though the first word "meerschaum" is actually a soft rock. SO.... it really looks like the term Schrade used for the "plastic" with the dark brown tone had to be dropped because it was deceiving.
Then the term "bonite" came along with is also somewhat deceiving.... There is no bone in bonite....LOL.

Food for thought!

[Meridian_Mike]

Good work Jason!

[jxr1197]

By saying "meerschaum bone" the buyers were expecting "BONE" even though the first word "meerschaum" is actually a soft rock. SO.... it really looks like the term Schrade used for the "plastic" with the dark brown tone had to be dropped because it was deceiving.
Then the term "bonite" came along with is also somewhat deceiving.... There is no bone in bonite....LOL.

Food for thought!

A lot of that should be looked at in the context of the day. The 1950s was HUGE on plastics and space age technologies. I don't know that consumers would feel led astray by the product names - but hey, I wasn't around yet so what do I know? Bonite came before Meerschaum and here's something interesting about it. Bonite is a pseudo word made up in a marketing meeting. The most common use of the 'ite' suffix is in mineral names which is interesting because they made up a 'mineral-y' name for plastic and then moved onto Meerschaum which is a real word that also happens to be a mineral (magnesium silicate). Coincidence or conspiracy?

[Meridian_Mike]

Excellent thoughts Jason!
It is fun to sit down and try to think like the marketers (and consumers) of that time.