Old, possibly Civil War vintage

[edge213]

Just picked up this early Oates Barlow. From my research, the bolster with arrow, heart, and bugle dates the knife between 1820 and 1850.

Love it!

[doglegg]

All of the above.

[Dave T]

Chevy, sorry I have to disappoint you.
I last posted on this topic 5 years ago. Luke Oates of Stannington was my ancestor and since 5 years ago I have gathered hundreds of detailed documents from many sources about his businesss, his family and the Barlow knife business of Hallamshire. The Oates trade mark was in almost continuous use on Barlows from the end of the 18th century to about 1925, with two well defined short break periods in the 1830s and then 1875 to about 1893. Therefore the mark itself cannot be used to date a knife.
The practice of trade marks on Barlow bolsters was started in 1876 by John Russell so this knife must be after that.
A retired worker from at the Oates factory (he worked there from 1900) was interviewed in 1975 about his time there. One of his recollections was that in the 1900 to 1914 period they were making Barlows with the Oates mark on the bolster. This was during the Vickers- Dronfield period of ownership. (Dronfield's wife Miranda was Luke Oates granddaughter)
Dave

[TazmanTom18]

Would have missed this whole thread without the "bump". Thanks, what a great community we have here.

[bighomer]

Loving this thread, information from the family's decendants is great. Many thanks.

[58chevy348]

Chevy, sorry I have to disappoint you.
I last posted on this topic 5 years ago. Luke Oates of Stannington was my ancestor and since 5 years ago I have gathered hundreds of detailed documents from many sources about his businesss, his family and the Barlow knife business of Hallamshire. The Oates trade mark was in almost continuous use on Barlows from the end of the 18th century to about 1925, with two well defined short break periods in the 1830s and then 1875 to about 1893. Therefore the mark itself cannot be used to date a knife.
The practice of trade marks on Barlow bolsters was started in 1876 by John Russell so this knife must be after that.
A retired worker from at the Oates factory (he worked there from 1900) was interviewed in 1975 about his time there. One of his recollections was that in the 1900 to 1914 period they were making Barlows with the Oates mark on the bolster. This was during the Vickers- Dronfield period of ownership. (Dronfield's wife Miranda was Luke Oates granddaughter)
Dave

I appreciate your input on the knife, although I have to disagree with a date of 1900 to 1914. The construction of this knife with steel integral bolsters with the liners, blade shape, etc dates this knife much earlier. I have studied these for many years myself. Although I cannot provide proof of the date range of 1820 to 1850 (I quoted that from other well-established researchers), I'm certain this is not a 20th century knife.

[58chevy348]

I also found this on another forum (so wouldn't this information date my knife to 1875 at the very latest?):

"Tweedale covers several cutlers from the Oates family, who seem to have originated in the Stannington District of Sheffield, which sits on the hill between the River Rivelin and the River Loxley. The family had been involved in cutlery manufacture since at least the 18th century.

The Oates listed by the esteemed Geoffery are Albert Oates (I have a nice example which I often carry), Oates & Colley, who were particularly active in the USA), Isaac Oates & Son (the son - Alfred - reputedly making a famous 365 blade Year Knife, which is still on display in Sheffield), William Oates (who specialised in can-opener knives and also made Bowie knives), Francis Oates and George Oates (both of whom were scissor manufacturers), and the afore-mentioned Luke Oates & Company.

According to Mr Tweedale, Luke Oates (1799-1875) was apparently the son of Matthew Oates, who was listed with William Oates in the 1787 directory as manufacturers of spotted knives, and used a mark consisting of a horizontal letter 'b', and a heart and arrow.

Among other knives, Luke Oates manufactured Barlows, with the use of the word 'Barlow' leading to a long-running legal dispute. Apparently his workshop - Alpha Works - still stands. He also rented trows on a wheel on the River Loxley, employing several grinders there, and when the wheel was hit by the Sheffield Flood (a dam-burst) in 1864, Oates claimed compensation for his lost Barlow knives.

An advert for Luke Oates & Co reproduced by Tweedale shows the corporate marks of the arrow, heart, and horizontal letter 'b' and 'Oates'.

Luke Oates died in 1875, aged 75, leaving under £400 and large stocks of knives, the business being continued by his son Squire Elijah Oates (1836-1891). Some of the knives subsequently produced were stamped 'S.E.Oates'."

[TPK]

Wow! Awesome knife!


And a cool thread!

[Dave T]

As I said in my earlier response:
The practice of trade marks on Barlow bolsters was started in 1876 by John Russell so this knife must be after that. l

The "q heart dart" trade mark had a complex life, coloured by litigation and inheritance covering more than 120 years , all of which I can prove. In simple terms Luke reassigned it to himself in 1842 then in 1877 two years after his death it was officially reassigned to his company ( which continued to operate under trustees until 1891). In that period Luke's 2 sons were merely tenants in common and Squire Elijah made the Barlows using his initials on the bolsters. His brother made a more upmarket conventional knife (3.5 inch) for export to Spain and S. America. That used the traditional Luke Oates mark. In 1891, amid much public confusion, the company passed (under the terms of Luke's will) to Luke Paris, the surviving son. When he died in 1899 his married daughter somehow took it over. It continued to operate as Luke Oates and Co, and with the q heart dart mark, for at least another 15 years. In that period they definitely made Barlows described exactly like yours.
In my earlier response I did not say your knife was made between 1900 and 1914. I said I have evidence that it was being made in that period from a man who started working there in that period. Of course it is possible they were making them before that employees started. He would not know. Therefore it could have been made as early 1892 0r 1893. In fact, because there is no country of origin on your knife, it is likely it was made before 1901, but definitely not before 1891.
Dave

[58chevy348]

As I said in my earlier response:
The practice of trade marks on Barlow bolsters was started in 1876 by John Russell so this knife must be after that. l

The "q heart dart" trade mark had a complex life, coloured by litigation and inheritance covering more than 120 years , all of which I can prove. In simple terms Luke reassigned it to himself in 1842 then in 1877 two years after his death it was officially reassigned to his company ( which continued to operate under trustees until 1891). In that period Luke's 2 sons were merely tenants in common and Squire Elijah made the Barlows using his initials on the bolsters. His brother made a more upmarket conventional knife (3.5 inch) for export to Spain and S. America. That used the traditional Luke Oates mark. In 1891, amid much public confusion, the company passed (under the terms of Luke's will) to Luke Paris, the surviving son. When he died in 1899 his married daughter somehow took it over. It continued to operate as Luke Oates and Co, and with the q heart dart mark, for at least another 15 years. In that period they definitely made Barlows described exactly like yours.
In my earlier response I did not say your knife was made between 1900 and 1914. I said I have evidence that it was being made in that period from a man who started working there in that period. Of course it is possible they were making them before that employees started. He would not know. Therefore it could have been made as early 1892 0r 1893. In fact, because there is no country of origin on your knife, it is likely it was made before 1901, but definitely not before 1891.
Dave

I genuinely appreciate your information and all of the research you've done on this family and their knives. I will respectfully agree to disagree. Every source I have ever researched has dated this knife to the Civil War era and earlier. I do think the 1820 to 1850 date range is off and the knives were likely made at least through the Civil War. There are other examples of marked bolster Barlows certainly dating before 1876. One I know of for certain is the Furness family (Ed, Enos, George, etc). There are pre-Civil War examples with "bleeders" for blades from Edward Furness with initials on bolsters. Further, Levine has stated integral bolsters ceased being made somewhere between 1870 to 1880. This knife definitely has integral bolsters. When I find my reference photos, I will share them.

[Dave T]

Enos, Edward, Matthew and George Furness were brothers and worked for their father Matthew until he died in 1875. Only after that did they make knives in their own names.
I have only seen knives from them with &S (&Son) on the Bolster.
They would not use &s if they did not have a son.
Each of them had sons, but the FIRST son for each was born as follows
To Edward, son Matthew 1876
To Enos, son Enos 1876
To Matthew, son Levi 1873
To George, son Thomas 1874.
So any Barlow with (E, Ed, M or G) Furness & S on the bolster was mid 1870s at the earliest.

Please note. I have hard documentary evidence for all my statements on this matter.
Please show me a Furness Barlow with name on bolster and WITHOUT ‘& S’
If you want to see what Barlows made in Sheffield looked like in 1856, just go to Steamboat Arabia. The date is indisputable. Nothing on the Bolsters (I have close up photos).