Help Needed in Identifying a Schrade Classic

[Schradenut]

Hi All,
I just picked up this nice little number and i would appreciate some of your knowledge in determining the history.
It is tang stamped SW 141, but is blade etched "49ers, 491L". The handle is the same as the 491.
I am thinking that this is a forerunner to the 491 Gold Rush series, as the 141 finished production in 1973, and the 491 started in 1973. Your thoughts please gents.

[orvet]

Nice one Tony!

The 141L was the Tall Tale, a small knife like a bird and trout knife with a bear head pommel until 1965. Starting with the 1966 catalog it is shown with the standard birds head type pommel.

The blades on your knife and the 141 are different shapes. Your knife is shaped like the 491L, a much different blade shape than the 141L.

I have no idea unless it was a mis-stamped blade.

[Schradenut]

Many thanks Dale.
I guess i will have to just treat it as a different knife, that someone was probably messing with.
It is a nice one, so i am happy with that.
Tony.

[btrwtr]

Is the blade 4 1/2". Looks like it could be the correct blade for the stamp with a different handle.

Check this out: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... uot-series

Wayne

[orvet]

According to the 1965 flyer the 141 has a 4-1/4" blade.

According to the 1975 flyer the 491 has a 4-1/2" blade.

If the Schrade flyers are correct the blades are different sizes even though the OAL is 8-1/2" for both knives.
But if you look at the blades, the two blades shown in the flyers are not even the same shape.
The 491 has a much deeper clip to the blade.

I may be wrong but they do not look the same to me.

[btrwtr]

The 1973 Schrade catalog shows the 491L as having a 4 1/4" blade. It appears that all the 49ers blades directly correlate to another Schrade hunter from that time frame other than the 491L in that it does have a more radical clip style blade that isn't shown on another knife.

It could be that the blade on the 141L was modified for the 49ers series. It is a more attractive blade style in my opinion and the 141L was discontinued in 1973. As it is with blade stamps it is possible that Schrade used the old 141L stamps on the very early 491L pattern if they did not have a stamp ready at production time. It might also be that the blade was again changed from 4 1/4" to 4 1/2' after 1973. The Walden stamps like the stamp on this subject knife were also coincidentally discontinued in 1973.

At any rate whether a mis-stamped blade, transition knife or ??? this is a very nice looking and possibly rare find. I doubt there are many other examples out there.

Schradenut can you tell us the blade length of your knife? That might help clear or cloud things up a bit.

Here is the 1973 Schrade line.

http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/ ... 3-CATS.pdf

Wayne

[orvet]

Well, after all it is Schrade and nothing is carved in stone and only a few things are etched in Jell-O! So anything is possible.

With all due respect Wayne, I doubt a 141L was reground into a 491.
I had a 141L with the bear head pommel, but I can't find it.
I think I may have sold it, but I don't remember for sure.

The blade on the 141 is very narrow from the spine to the edge, not much more than 5/8" as I recall. It was a nice bird & trout pattern. I think the 141 is much narrower than the 491 appears to be. I don’t think it would be possible to grind that much clip into a 141 and still have any blade left.
I doubt it would be economically feasible to take an existing blank and regrind it into a different shape. The setup cost would probably render it unviable. I have not heard of that being done at any factory, (though that in itself does not mean it has not happened).

Maybe someone has a 141L with either a bear head pommel or the later birds head pommel that can measure and post it on here. I just don't think the 141 blade was wide enough to regrind and get a 491.

Tony, can you measure your knife from the spine to the cutting edge down near the tang and post the width?
Thank you.

Even better, if someone has a 141 & a 491, perhaps they can post a picture of the two knives side by side. That would give us a good idea as to whether a 141 could be reground into a 491.

I am not trying to be argumentative Wayne, but as I remember my 141 it was much narrower than the 491 appears to be.
I think there must be a different explanation than a regrind.

[btrwtr]

Dale,

I agree with you on all counts. I didn't mean to say Schrade would actually regrind the existing blades but rather may have modified the pattern (like the Case 99 1/2 pattern switch from the A blade profile).

I did have a Schrade Walden 141 with the Bear head pommel and a factory serrated blade. Yes, the blade was quite narrow spine to edge and I don't know that you could get a 491 out of a 141 by regrinding.

The Schrade catalogs I found online, 1973,74 & 75, all show the 491 as having a 4 1/4" blade. Maybe Schrade changed the blade length to 4 1/2" in an attempt to bolster sluggish sales before the pattern was discontinued.

http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/Catalogs/

It would be interesting to see a side by side comparison in the blades. If anyone has an example of either the 141 or 491 now would be a good time to post it along with some dimensions.

Wayne

[orvet]

Sorry Wayne, I misunderstood.

There was a story about the knife with the bear pommel, something to do with Henry Baer (Uncle Henry) and a bear, but I can't remember what it is now.

They say when you get old there are three things that are the first things to go; one is the memory and I can't remember the other two.

I do hope someone has both knives and can post a side-by-side picture.

Here are the Schrade flyers I got the pics from; you can see the evolution of patterns you were speaking of and how the earlier ones were the basis of the design for the newer ones.

[garddogg56]

here is a 141 with an old Imperial to compare she is a bird and trout blade.

[btrwtr]

garddogg56, Thanks for posting the Bear Head 141. The stamp looks quite like the stamp on Schradenut's 49er. I do think that 49er must be a very early version of an already uncommon knife.

Wayne

[orvet]

The two knives are stamped on opposite sides of the blade.

[tongueriver]

I also agree with Dale, but it is still a mystery. Meanwhile, I have seen a 497 (twice, actually) tang stamped as a Schrade Walden 147. But this 497 blade could not have been ground out of a 147 blade; the 497 is a heavier blade.

[Schradenut]

Many thanks for your input gentleman. My concern has sparked quite a bit of interest amongst you all.
I can't answer you question yet Dale, as the knife is somewhere between Chicago and Sydney. When it arrives i will let you know, and maybe shed some more light in it.
From what i can see from the pics, is that the knife is a 491L in every respect, and they have put a tang stamp on it, as was mooted, and gave it a blade etch for identification.
Watch this space, i will be back.
Tony.

[orvet]

Tony,
I can't wait to see your pictures and your assessment of the knife when you get it in your hand!

[Schradenut]

Good news, the mail eventually made it to Oz, and the knife in question was aboard.
I have compared the 141 tang stamped knife with my 49lL, and they are exactly the same knife, in every department.
It was mooted that seeing the 141 finished production in 1973, and the 491 started, that the tang stamp for the 491 was not ready when production started, so they used the 141. I favor this explanation.
Here are some pics for you all to mull over.
Tony.

[orvet]

It appears to me there are two different blade patterns with the 141 model number on them.
Tony, could you please measure the blades on the 3 knives stamped 141?
I am curious to see if the match up with the length described in my post of the catalog pages.
Thanks!

That is a fine looking set of knives you have, whatever the explanation of the model numbers!

[Schradenut]

Dale, the measurements for the 3, 141 tang stamped knives are;
1. Original 141...both the same at 4 3/16"(from the finger guard to the tip)
2. 141/491 is 4 1/2"(from the finger guard to the tip).
Hope this helps mate.
Cheers,
Tony.

[Felanmac]

I have this very good condition Schrade/Craftsman bear head knife. It seems to have a 491 blade with the 140 handle. I think these were Sears custom orders?