Ivory question

[espn77]

Wondering when it became illegal to use ivory for knife handles. And how old does a knife have to be to be legally considered ok. Thanks Keith

[dcgm4]

It's not illegal to use ivory for knife handles. It's illegal to use ivory that was taken from elephants after the ban on newly collected ivory was implemented. That ban started on February 26, 1976. If the ivory was collected before February 26, 1976, then it is referred to as pre-ban ivory.

Pre-ban and antique ivory are legal to own and use. A custom knife maker can use pre-ban ivory for the handles of a knife they make.

[espn77]

Thanks Dave

[Mumbleypeg]

Best resource for info on laws affecting knives can be found at AKTI https://www.akti.org/education/the-ivory-ban/

Ken

[espn77]

Thanks Ken. That was a very interesting link. I got a Remington grafting/budding knife the other day with ivory handles and it got me to thinking. Thanks again Keith

[QTCut5]

Owning "pre-ban" elephant ivory is not the problem...buying & selling ivory or items containing ivory (regardless of age/when the ivory was "harvested") and/or transporting said items across international boundaries and state lines is where you run into legal issues.

~Q~

[RobesonsRme.com]

And it's on you to provide legal documentation of the age of the ivory and when it entered the U.S. Your say-so is not sufficient.

You need to read the latest information on The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Department's regulations re' elephant ivory.

It's complicated, unclear and filled with many traps for the unwary and uninformed.

Charlie Noyes

[kootenay joe]

"It's complicated, unclear and filled with many traps for the unwary and uninformed."
Yes, so how enforceable is it ? I realize that border guards and Customs inspectors can confiscate anything they want to. They are given a great degree of latitude on how they interpret the laws. Mere suspicion that a law might be being contravened is reason enough to confiscate. But will the authorities track down those who advertise an ivory knife on say AAPK ?
And how much will is there to chase after ivory when narcotics and explosives are far more pressing problems ?
These are questions, not rhetorical.
kj

[QTCut5]

May not be high on the enforcement priority list...but, as unlikely as it may be, if you do happen to get caught and charged, the punishment & penalties will surely make you wonder if it was really worth the risk.

I see elephant ivory being bought and sold on eBay quite frequently (I almost always bid on it, too). But, more often than not, some "concerned citizen" tips off the Beast Police and the listings get pulled down and all bids cancelled (the items also disappear from all watch lists and history pages). I don't know what the penalty is for the seller (if any at all), but I assume they at least get a sternly worded warning about eBay rules and policies along with a not-too-subtle threat of suspension and possible loss of selling privileges.

Here's an elephant ivory knife that's currently for sale from the Smokey Mtn. Knife Works eBay site. It's already made it longer than most ivory knives I watch and/or bid on and looks like it may actually cross the finish line without interference.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-CASE-XX-EX ... 1431.l2648

~Q~

[zp4ja]

Here is my opinion for whatever it is worth...

How enforceable is it? Not really sure that matters, it is a law. With all due respect, not sure how enforceable removing the tag on a mattress in your bedroom is either. Yes, I have exceeded the speed limit before but don't do so purposely.

Tell that to all the 1000s of people that RIAA (Record Industry Association of America) that got sued and reamed for file sharing. One guy like $675, 000 for 30 songs.

Pretty sure the US Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) is responsible for enforcement. Although the agency may sound harmless they can be pretty brutal for violations as far as penalty and would likely pounce on any infraction if given the chance. Couple that with what Charlie pointed out as far proving how old it is, the "can and cannots, etc, likely any violation would be ugly to deal with.

Check out this link. This guy tried to cross from Mexico into US with bird feathers. The USFWS ran DNA tests and found they came from protected wildlife birds. Could face 20 years in the jail. Yes, for bird feathers.

https://www.fws.gov/news/ShowNews.cfm?r ... rce=iframe

Here is some more cases they have...

https://www.fws.gov/le/stories.html

I realize the ivory ban intent is to stop elephant poachers. But we are talking the government here. I assume they would not mind legally crucifying some individual in violation of the ban and not just major traffickers.

My 2 cents.

Jerry

[terryl308]

Here is my 2 cents worth, bottom line is, the Feds made it illegal to sell ivory across state lines and the seller needs to provide proof that it is 100 year old ivory! which by the way is next to impossible. It has been against Ebay policy for a long time to sell ivory products, some advertise the item to have "exotic handle material" not ivory, so it escapes being shut down. It would take an Army of agents to enforce the ban, but I for one would not want to be the first example! So, would you get caught, probably not, but??????? not worth the gamble in my books, Have a nice day, Terry

[kootenay joe]

Items containing ivory such as cutlery, carvings, jewelry, are not going to go away because of any laws. Their commerce will go underground creating a 'black market'. History shows that such items usually command a premium price. People with ivory items might end up selling them privately for a profit.
kj

[jerryd6818]

Bans create demand. People want what they're not supposed to have.

[QTCut5]

Well, well, well...another factory ivory Case Mini Trapper is currently for sale on the Beast. I don't have any idea how many ivory handled knives Case released (this one's from 1985), but they do seem to be pretty rare, at least for sale. I would think Case collectors would be all over this one since the "IV" in the pattern number is a dead giveaway that the handles are made of E. ivory (not imitation ivory which only has an "I" in the pattern number)--this is not something that comes up for sale very often. Maybe the ban is working better than we thought and collectors just don't want to take the risk of being charged with interstate trafficking of endangered wildlife products? Although, the previous IV207 sold for $305, so perhaps it's the amateurish looking scrimshaw that's responsible for the low bid price?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-LMT-CASE-X ... 1431.l2648

~Q~

[kootenay joe]

I can see Case collectors going for the ivory handled Case knife, but not collectors of ivory knives. The ivory looks flat white, no grain, boring even. The ivory GEC used in many of their knives is first rate and these knives are sought after by collectors of knives with ivory handles.
I wonder if Case used 'reconstituted' ivory ? = ivory sawdust + epoxy; it has no grain.
kj

[QTCut5]

I can see Case collectors going for the ivory handled Case knife, but not collectors of ivory knives. The ivory looks flat white, no grain, boring even. The ivory GEC used in many of their knives is first rate and these knives are sought after by collectors of knives with ivory handles.
I wonder if Case used 'reconstituted' ivory ? = ivory sawdust + epoxy; it has no grain.
kj

Koot J, I don't know what type of device you're viewing this on, but I can see the ivory grain quite clearly under magnification on my screen; so, I'm pretty sure it's not reconstituted ivory. The photos/lighting aren't all that great, but this Case IV207 mini trapper definitely looks to be genuine E. ivory to me.

I have a Bulldog Wharncliffe Whittler with reconstituted ivory handles and it's almost impossible to distinguish from synthetic material, even under magnification.

~Q~

[kootenay joe]

Good to hear the Case has ivory that is not the reconstituted variety. I am looking at the pics on a 19" laptop. I know that grain is hard capture in pictures.
kj

[QTCut5]

Kevin Pipes must have acquired someone's Case ivory collection...this is the third one he's listed in as many weeks. I wonder how many more he still has?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-CASE-XX-US ... 1438.l2649

I agree with you completely about the "flat" aspect of the Case ivory, KJ...it does not appear to have the same presentation quality as the ivory I have and have seen on custom knives (or even some other factory knives like on that Bulldog sowbelly stockman that Ivoryman picked up and posted on AAPK a short time ago).

~Q~

[Quick Steel]

Q, reference your observation, could Case be using warthog tusks for their ivory? If so, I wonder if that could explain the flatness.

[QTCut5]

I really couldn't say. I have never seen warthog ivory handles or Case ivory handled knives in person. All my observations are based entirely on photos, so, it's difficult to compare. Interesting idea, though. I'm sure Ivoryman could shed some light on that concept as he has a lot more first-hand experience with many different types of ivory. I'll send him a PM and see what he thinks.

~Q~

[bighomer]

This may be a dumb question but shouldn't these Case knives that Mr. Pipes is selling have documents of pre ban or type of ivory? Seems to me that if these were made by Case they would need to have proof.

[QTCut5]

Not a dumb question at all, perfectly valid and apropos to the "ivory question" under discussion.

According to my reading and understanding of the current laws re: sale of (African) elephant ivory, mvpknives (aka Smoky Mountain Knife Works) is guilty of illegal ivory trafficking unless they have some kind of proof that the ivory used to make these knives was harvested prior to the 1976 ivory ban. Even if they had such proof, it may still be illegal for them to sell it across state lines according to US Fish & Wildlife Service regulations unless it can be proven that the ivory was legally harvested from the elephant prior to Feb. 26, 1976, was imported into the USA prior to Jan, 18, 1990, the ivory accounts for no more than 50% of the value of the knife, the ivory does not account for more than 50% of the volume of the knife and the total weight of the ivory is less than 200 grams (meets the de minimus exemption).

The regulations are very clear and quite specific and you can read all about it at the US Fish & Wildlife Service website:

https://www.fws.gov/international/trave ... rs.html#30

~Q~

[kootenay joe]

How is it possible to prove that a piece of ivory entered USA prior to 1976 ?
If you bought a whole tusk or already cut pieces, presumably there was a bill of sale. However there would be no proof that the bill of sale was for any specific pieces of ivory. i.e. you might have bought some ivory in 1970 and then some more in 1980. you could say the 1970 bill of sale was for the ivory that you bought in 1980.
For ivory already incorporated into a knife you possibly could prove when the knife was made, but for pieces of ivory it is not possible to say when it entered USA.
kj

[QTCut5]

Exactly.
And, apparently, the burden of proof lies with the owner of the ivory to establish legal compliance, not with the authorities to prove violation of the law. In other words: You are considered guilty unless you can prove innocence (which is absurdly difficult if not impossible in the vast majority of cases) instead of innocent until proven guilty.

It's really just a question of how intensely the authorities decide to pursue enforcement on a case by case basis.

~Q~

[terryl308]

This topic has been cussed and discussed a hundred times on this forum and others, and like KJ said it is impossible to tell when the knife scales were harvested. I have had elephant tusks that were supposed to imported in 1969 but I can't prove that, but there was a stamp in the one tusk that was supposed to be put in it by the feds. about 1/2" tall letters and measured about 5" long. It had AR and six numbers stamped on it which I was told by a retired federal game warden that the numbers were the weight in kilograms and the last two digits of the year imported. The "AR" he thought might be African Republic or Argentina (imported later to the states?) and the last two digits were 69. But -----how many knife handles could be cut out of a 25lb. tusk? quite a few! and what year? who the hell knows. I would like to think the people in charge of such things would have better things to do than look for us "criminals" involved in the pocket knife hobby. Terry