Split backspring = whittler????

[espn77]

So if a knife has a split backspring does it automatically fall into the whittler category? Curious to see some pictures and hear your thoughts.

[Mumbleypeg]

So if a knife has a split backspring does it automatically fall into the whittler category? Curious to see some pictures and hear your thoughts.

Do you have an example of a knife having a split backspring that does not have the other commonly accepted attributes of a whittler? (Has two backsprings with master blade that bears on both springs and two smaller blades at the other end, each bearing on one of the springs.*) I ask because I personally don't recall seeing such an animal. I'd like to understand better what you're asking.

* Whittler definition per Levine's Guide.

Ken

Edit: a little more research in Levine's answered my question, and maybe at least part of yours. He says lobster pens often have split backsprings. "A "lobster" knife has its spring or springs (often a single "split" or branched spring) inside the middle of the handle." Learn something new every day. Problem is the springs on a lobster are inside the knife. Pretty much have to take it apart to see the springs.

[Dinadan]

I am with Ken on this. I have never seen any knife with split backsprings that I would not classify as a whittler. It is like asking if a bipedal creature walks on two legs. By definition, it does.

[kootenay joe]

A true split spring whittler is a one spring knife. The spring is forged and then split lengthwise for just over half it's length. The master blade abuts the wide end of the spring and the 2 secondaries each abut against one of the split pieces(arms) of the spring.
That was the old way of making a whittler. By later part of 1800's the whittler construction became more modern using 2 springs.
The term 'split spring whittler' gets used now to simply mean 'whittler'. I doubt people who say the 'split spring' part even look at the springs.
The usual construction of a whittler for the last 100+ years is to place a tapered divider (usually brass) between the 2 springs. This gives more clearance for the secondary blades to lie on either side of master.
A less common way is to taper the 2 springs so that one end is wider than the the other.
I'm sure those who build & take apart knives will have more to say about whittler springs and blade fitting.
kj

[espn77]

Ok. I appologis for not starting with pictures. Here are 4 different handle shaped knives. Ranging from 4.5 inches to 3 inches. All having the main blade use both backspring. Looking at them for me to wondering if they all were considered whittlers.

[espn77]

All reassembling this style.

[orvet]

Keith,
I am not an expert on whittlers, but I would consider those for knives to be whittlers.

Those have the tapered wedge center brass liner, so I would not call those a split back spring whittler.
But I would consider them whittlers.

[Mumbleypeg]

Those all fit my definition, but that's not worth much. Per Levine's Guide to Knives, here's what he says about it. Hope this helps. To answer your question though, take a look a this old post. Looks like a true split backspring, like Roland was talking about, but it's not a whittler! viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8751&p=72348&hilit= ... ing#p72348

Ken

[espn77]

I've been digging around and found this one. I have been under the impression this is a cattle knife "BUT" pretty good chance I'm wrong.

[gsmith7158]

I've been digging around and found this one. I have been under the impression this is a cattle knife "BUT" pretty good chance I'm wrong.

Keith , If memory serves me correctly and often times it does not But I believe Case made some 45's inthe split spring fashion that looked more like Cattle knives than whittlers.

[FRJ]

Ken, that is a marvelous little knife in that link.

[Mumbleypeg]

If I read Levine correctly he'd say it's a whittler. Probably either a "jumbo" or a "cigar" whittler - his book has a chart listing those types along with 14 other kinds of whittlers. Personally I'd call it a cattle knife built on a whittler frame. The spey blade qualifies it as a cattle knife. The construction makes it a whittler.

Ken

[espn77]

Ken, thanks a bunch for all the information you have given me.
Keith

[Mumbleypeg]

Glad to help Keith. Whittlers, of all kinds, are a passion of mine. I wouldn't take anything I say to the bank though!

Ken

[kootenay joe]

Ken that is not a Cattle knife frame. Most Cattle knives are equal end with straight sides. Yours is equal end but the sides are slightly oval, i.e. there is a slight curve outward of top and bottom edges. Your Remington is a Whittler and a beauty too.
kj

[RalphAlsip]

Keith , If memory serves me correctly and often times it does not But I believe Case made some 45's inthe split spring fashion that looked more like Cattle knives than whittlers.

Greg, you are thinking of the Case Tested XX 6345 SAB which is in a whittler blade configuration with a split back spring. It's a rare variation of the 45 pattern and I wouldn't know if it should be called a Whittler, a Cattle Knife, or both . This knife is very susceptible to blade rub. I like the way the 6345 SAB looks and it's a good collectible with nickel silver components, but it wouldn't be a good knife to use from a functional / operational perspective (IMO).

Keith, your Remington whittler is super nice!

[Mumbleypeg]

Ken that is not a Cattle knife frame. Most Cattle knives are equal end with straight sides. Yours is equal end but the sides are slightly oval, i.e. there is a slight curve outward of top and bottom edges. Your Remington is a Whittler and a beauty too.
kj

I agree Keith's Remington is a whittler. I also agree the equal-end with straight sides is what would be considered a "standard" cattle knife. However if you have access to a copy of Levine's Guide you'll see under his Cattle Knives heading pictures and descriptions of sleeveboard, cigars, balloons, serpentine, a humpback, and a gunboat canoe. I'm no expert on cattle knives or anything else. Just going by what Levine's says.

Ken

[djknife13]

I believe a lot of different styles of knives can be made in a "whittler" configuration as long as it has 3 blades, and can be made with one large blade functioning off the spring or springs on one end and two blades functioning off two baldes on the other end. Also some two blade hawkbill (pruner) knives were made with actual split back spring construction back in the 1800's. I have one buried back in my pile of hawkbills and have seen at least one other example although they are rare. I don't know of any other patterns that used true split back springs other than whittlers and hawkbills._____Dave

[kootenay joe]

I am aware of the various Cattle knife frames. I have a collection of Cattle knives which was my focus a few years ago.
However i don't think the oval Remington frame was ever one used for a Cattle knife. I mentioned the equal end variety because that is what the poster was thinking the frame was.
If a knife fits the definition: 3 blades, 2 springs, master bears on both springs, then it is a whittler. It does not matter what frame is used or what blade profiles are there.
The Case Tested as shown by "Ralph" is a Whittler.
The Whittler is one pattern with a clear definition. Most other patterns have a more fuzzy definition.
kj
edit to add: Ken, i love LG4 and have read my copy so many times the page corners are all curled making it hard to open the right page. Every time i read a section i learn something i did not quite 'get' on previous readings. There is no other knife book to compare with the more 'academic' nature of Levine's work.

[carrmillus]

........i'll have to look when I get back home later today, I think I have one true split-spring camillus whittler, all the others are 2 spring with the separate spacer!!..........

[carrmillus]

.......oops, wrong again, all of mine are double spring with the spacer, still looking for the holy grail!!!.... ......

[kootenay joe]

Except for maybe a one off custom, i'm sure no true split spring knife has been made since the 1800's, i.e. none for well over 100 years.
I thought i had a true split spring whittler with a pearl Sheffield knife circa 1870's-1880's. However turned out springs had been buffed ++ so that the line where the 2 springs meet was very hard to see at one end. (for half length of knife) I mention this as something to look closely at if you think it might be a split spring. They are very rare. The only one i know of is owned by a forum member here.
kj