Gardner 1876

[kootenay joe]

Joseph Gardner made knives from 1876 to 1883 in Shelburne Falls Mass. Does this look like a Gardner knife to you ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Gardner-18 ... 0167.m2940
kj

Edit to add: i cannot get listing pics onto my computer except as a tiny image; the entire listing downloads when i rt click on listing image.

[americanedgetech]

What a great knife.
Too bad I've spent my knife money for the week...

Ps... I keep clicking images until the "links" run out. Then you can right click, and "save image as".
Not always but in most cases...

[kootenay joe]

Thanks for posting the pictures.
"What a great knife" I take it your opinion is that this is an original Gardner 1876 knife ?
kj

[americanedgetech]

It could be an original sweet bread, and beans knife... I like it.
That's all I was saying.
All I can do for now is help post pictures.

[supratentorial]

Hi KJ. What has you wondering about this one? Nothing jumps out but would need a better look to know for sure. The blades and blade stamps look right. But they have been sanded and wire wheeled. I don't have a catalog unfortunately but it seems right for the time period. Covers look original and doesn't look like it has been apart. Would need much better photos or have the knife in hand to make sure nothing more than cosmetic was done to the pivot pin and the blades belong in the handle. Limited to what can be seen in the photos, it looks okay.

[kootenay joe]

I have owned 2 Gardner 1876 knives. Both in excellent condition but they just looked like old knives. This one just does not look like a knife made in 1870's; i.e. an overall impression rather than specific details. It was a small company, did not make many knives. Did Gardner make a 3 1/2" Swell Center pattern ?
Also seller says: "this is the snappiest knife I’ve ever seen. It’s got half snap, full snap and extra snap."
I have knives that have been altered that have this high strung bouncy snap. The springs are under excessive tension due i believe to size/geometry of tang not being an exact fit to the spring.
kj

[supratentorial]

My impression is that the seller doesn't know much about knives. If he did, he would have used much better keywords for his lot of knives.
Years ago, I sold an ebony jack that had pretty strong snap. It was a common regular jack. I can't rule out your concerns but I'd bet a nickel it is right. If you are thinking about bidding, you might email him for more photos. I got a good impression that he's trying to accurately describe his listings even though he didn't put much effort into them.

[americanedgetech]

Take this for what it is worth. I am looking at the knife as a mechanic, and ONLY as a mechanic.

The blades do look crude as per a short span knife maker, the wear on the tang looks newer than a well worn knife or one that was stashed away for ever should have. Also the tang pin /bolster look like they were re-worked. That could explain the new wear on the tang... Tight bolsters.
Perhaps the blades were transplanted into those handles. As said above that geometry would explain the "extra snap" as well

You all know I am NO PRO but mechanically I believe I see tells.
I would still buy the knife just for the blades, and hope it is all correct. Most of us have wasted more money on lessor things.
Just my 2 cents.

[LongBlade]

My opinion and 2 cents... Knife may be for real as stamping looks correct and I have seen coke bottle jacks from many of the old CT/Mass makers... No doubt the blades have seen sharpening... Though I am cautious these days buying I have to say the pivot pins do have a red flag to me - maybe it was re-pinned but think the blades and frame are original. When I contacted this seller to get further info (also photos of the blades closed in frame and a photo from the top and sides)... I received a bizarre reply that he was home alone and unsupervised (HUH ) and that he wouldn't be able to take photos for another 3 weeks... he said maybe the blade lost 2 to 3 thousands of an inch in sharpening which I think is far from the truth - that came along with a sales pitch - anyway I won't be bidding as I am tired of many eBay seller games... again my opinion....

[americanedgetech]

I am unsupervised so I can relate.

What an odd reply from the seller! If it sold for 70.00 or less I'd be cool w/ it just for the blades. The frame is a free bonus.

HOLD THE PRESSES!!! I just noticed the fonts on the stamps. They are very different in spacing, and size.
I do not know enough to judge... Just pointing it out

[kootenay joe]

Thanks for this great input. I think all of us learn something when there are multiple posters.
aet, i want to comment on one of your 'points': "The blades do look crude as per a short span knife make"
You have made an incorrect assumption. A short lived knife company does not mean inexperienced cutlers. In this instance, Joseph Gardner had been superindentent at Lamson & Goodnow, a large knife manufacturing business, for many years before starting up his own business in 1876.
kj

[americanedgetech]

Thanks for adding that info KJ.
I rarely state my thoughts correctly or completely but what I meant was the shape/style of the blades lack that certain refinement that you see in many other/most other long lived makers.

The long blade pull running out into the top grind... In fact that top grind itself, and the matching grind on the top of the tang just look rather crude or rudimentary compared to other manufacturers from the same era. They (to me) look more like afterthoughts than features.

I am very far from experienced so I feel my observations will lead to explanations that in turn will educate me. Once I learn what to look for, I will know what those parts are called. Then with any luck I will have room enough in my close to capacity mind to learn about the makers.

So thanks for the info KJ, and everyone here actually... I can barely digest half of what I am reading but I'm getting it!

[Gunsil]

Dunno why this beautiful original knife showed up in this section. Original knife, not re-pinned, nothing wrong with it other than a little blade wear, no wire wheel marks, sweet knife, and fetched a decent price from a knowing buyer.

[kootenay joe]

It showed up here because it did not look like an 1870's knife to me. I don't see this forum as being only open to already known to be fake knives.
I see this forum as a place to post knives that you think might not be all original. The ensuing discussion often brings up points or facts that are new to poster and others as well; i.e. most of us can learn something. Whether the posted knife is all original or a fake is not as important as the lessons they impart.
Had i sat tight and not posted i might have won this knife for a lot less than the $332 ? it sold for.
kj

[danno50]

Thanks for adding that info KJ.
I rarely state my thoughts correctly or completely but what I meant was the shape/style of the blades lack that certain refinement that you see in many other/most other long lived makers.

The long blade pull running out into the top grind... In fact that top grind itself, and the matching grind on the top of the tang just look rather crude or rudimentary compared to other manufacturers from the same era. They (to me) look more like afterthoughts than features.

I am very far from experienced so I feel my observations will lead to explanations that in turn will educate me. Once I learn what to look for, I will know what those parts are called. Then with any luck I will have room enough in my close to capacity mind to learn about the makers.

So thanks for the info KJ, and everyone here actually... I can barely digest half of what I am reading but I'm getting it!

What you refer to as the "top grind" on the master blade is what is called a cut swedge (also called swage). The long pull running into the swedge is not uncommon on older knives. This is a nice old knife and I see nothing at all about the blades, or grinds, that is crude or rudimentary. The knife is old and used.
Dan

[americanedgetech]

Thank you Dan.
Now I know what the swedge is.I even had to correct "spell check on my PC.

I have actually liked, and appreciated that OP knife from the get go. Those are the knives that I have that "feeling" about. Knives with history... Just imagine the hands that made it, to the hands that used, and sharpened it, to the hands that passed it down to allow it to be HERE today.
I never meant to imply it was less than desirable (if I did). I just don't know how to explain my thoughts yet. (but I do love to throw them in the ring).

I only learn by listening. I even explain a process to myself (out loud) as I work. When I here something it either makes sense or it doesn't.
Thanks again Dan.
Your' input makes sense! (I know that You know it does... )
Ken

[Gunsil]

It showed up here because it did not look like an 1870's knife to me. I don't see this forum as being only open to already known to be fake knives.
I see this forum as a place to post knives that you think might not be all original. The ensuing discussion often brings up points or facts that are new to poster and others as well; i.e. most of us can learn something. Whether the posted knife is all original or a fake is not as important as the lessons they impart.
Had i sat tight and not posted i might have won this knife for a lot less than the $332 ? it sold for.
kj

It would have bought that price whether you posted it or not, without a doubt. Many knowledgeable folks out there who don't bother much with the musings of many here.

[Gunsil]

Thank you Dan.
Now I know what the swedge is.I even had to correct "spell check on my PC.

I have actually liked, and appreciated that OP knife from the get go. Those are the knives that I have that "feeling" about. Knives with history... Just imagine the hands that made it, to the hands that used, and sharpened it, to the hands that passed it down to allow it to be HERE today.
I never meant to imply it was less than desirable (if I did). I just don't know how to explain my thoughts yet. (but I do love to throw them in the ring).

I only learn by listening. I even explain a process to myself (out loud) as I work. When I here something it either makes sense or it doesn't.
Thanks again Dan.
Your' input makes sense! (I know that You know it does... )
Ken

Actually "top grind" is correct. "Swedge", or "swage" is an old misnomer. Swedging or swaging refers to a metal stamping process and the old knives have the top profiles ground in place, not stamped, swedged or swaged in place.

[americanedgetech]

It showed up here because it did not look like an 1870's knife to me. I don't see this forum as being only open to already known to be fake knives.
I see this forum as a place to post knives that you think might not be all original. The ensuing discussion often brings up points or facts that are new to poster and others as well; i.e. most of us can learn something. Whether the posted knife is all original or a fake is not as important as the lessons they impart.
Had i sat tight and not posted i might have won this knife for a lot less than the $332 ? it sold for.
kj

It would have bought that price whether you posted it or not, without a doubt. Many knowledgeable folks out there who don't bother much with the musings of many here.

Kj, I like the way you stated the idea behind the discussions, and if it is of any consolation... I felt the same way when the A. Jordan knife sold.

Mr. Gunsil,
The cream of the crop collectors may not need the forums to spot a collectible but the vast majority of us do need the forums for advice.
Posting a question about an on-going auction will bring searches / google to the topic. Now the folks that would have perhaps just passed it by, are bidding.
Does that really effect the final selling price??? I have no way of knowing but I have to think it does chum the waters, so to speak.

Now the knife in question here... I can see it fetching double what it sold for. The centennial tie to the date alone bears value (IMHO).
To the right collector who knows what it could bring.

These are the type of thread(s) that I really enjoy. Threads that discuss the potential history of a knife and its maker more so than the cosmetic value of a knife.
It's a funny feeling I get inside when I see one of these sell. I sort of feel like it is the last time a great knife will be available. Hence, I but too many...

[kootenay joe]

Gunsil, posting an interesting ebay knife here or on BF pretty well always brings increased bidding. The more bidders, the higher the price. I doubt many people search "Gardner" and the seller is not a regular knife seller so is not one that knife collectors routinely check. There is a reasonable chance it would have flown under the radar.
kj

[danno50]

Thank you Dan.
Now I know what the swedge is.I even had to correct "spell check on my PC.

I have actually liked, and appreciated that OP knife from the get go. Those are the knives that I have that "feeling" about. Knives with history... Just imagine the hands that made it, to the hands that used, and sharpened it, to the hands that passed it down to allow it to be HERE today.
I never meant to imply it was less than desirable (if I did). I just don't know how to explain my thoughts yet. (but I do love to throw them in the ring).

I only learn by listening. I even explain a process to myself (out loud) as I work. When I here something it either makes sense or it doesn't.
Thanks again Dan.
Your' input makes sense! (I know that You know it does... )
Ken

Actually "top grind" is correct. "Swedge", or "swage" is an old misnomer. Swedging or swaging refers to a metal stamping process and the old knives have the top profiles ground in place, not stamped, swedged or swaged in place.

Gunsil, thanks very much for that information, and apologies to Ken. In 8 years of almost daily perusal of knife forums I do not recall ever hearing the "top grind" referred to as anything but a swedge or swage (cut or drawn). It is good to learn something new everyday.
Dan

[americanedgetech]

I appreciate the information as well.

I do know that swedging is actually referring to the shape more that the cause of the shape so I can understand the difference between a stamped swedge, and a top grind having different names in the knife industry. In ship building swedges are used all through the construction process, and they all have different names.

Now I have to assume that stock removal makers will still call a top grind a swedge. Thank God we are not discussing a Japanese sword

[Bentime]

That's a great knife, For what it's worth, I am 99%+++ certain that is the real deal. I have owned a few Gardners, including the exact same pattern, and it does snap like you can't believe. I purchased mine in northwest CT along with about 5 others, in various stages of wear. The materials are consistent with the time period and they are very well made knives. The stamping is consistent with other Gardners I have either seen or been fortunate enough to purchase. Gardner was instrumental in developing many innovations in the industry, as referenced in Levines. Prior to making his own knives he was manager at Lamson Goodnow in Southwest Mass. That's a really cool knife.

[LongBlade]

Hey Ben - Good to see you on here ...

As I noted above when this was originally posted I do agree all are original parts - but I am somewhat bothered by the pivot pin - same look on mark and pile side. Gunsil claims it was not re-pinned but that bolster has been cleaned so heavily compared to the blades (and indeed there are scratches if one looks closely at bolster) that I am suspicious (right or wrong) that it has not been re-pinned - of course I can be wrong as maybe the color of a replaced pin may differ somewhat ... just a concern about the pivot pin... maybe the aggressive cleaning of bolster made the pins look this way? I know I have seen old knives where the pivot pin is not flush due to use but for me those are obvious when the bolster has not been buffed to spanking new clean... thankfully they didn't clean the blades like the bolster...

[FRJ]

Ben, welcome here. I didn't realize you were a member of AAPK. It's great to here from you. We have talked at knife shows and at
the Woodbury flea market.
It's nice to hear your insightful comments on the Gardner knife. I know you have experience with them and have enjoyed seeing the ones you have shown me. It was my good fortune to buy this knife.
I hope you will post more often and show some of your knives.

PS: I posted this knife some wear on the forum but it wasn't in Knife Lore and I will do that. .... and here ....