JUST AIN'T RIGHT?

[tongueriver]

I see a pre-1973 knife which has been scotch-brite scrubbed to a nice finish, with covers from the 1980s or 1990s. This knife has been re-listed for at least a year and I think once in awhile for maybe two years. I told him what I thought a long time ago. What do others think?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Schrade-Walden ... 1438.l2649

[thefarside]

Definitely re-handled, I really don't like much about the knife.

[Mumbleypeg]

At 1/10th the asking price it would be a good EDC.

Ken

[kootenay joe]

Quote: "Definitely re-handled".
Why do you think this ?
kj

[Dinadan]

I am no expert, but what exactly about the knife is wrong? The blades being polished or the bone handle? If that knife was rehandled then the guy that did it was an expert! The pins look just like the pins in my old Schrades, and I have one with bone that is pretty sinilar to that. I get that the price is real high.

[tongueriver]

In the Schrade Walden era, 1946 to 1973, but more specifically 1946 to 1961, that company had NO bone that looked even remotely like that. They started using similar materials much later with collector interest, and possibly driven by Jim Parker, and possibly imported from Germany. The 1978 issues commissioned by Jim Parker come to mind.

[kootenay joe]

Calvin likely you are correct but you know "with Schrade, anything is possible". This refers to the fact that no matter how long you collect Schrade, something 'new' that you have not seen before pops up regularly.
These handles have been professionally installed. It is not impossible that they were installed in the S-W factory.
kj

[KnifeSlinger#81]

Calvin is correct about the bone. It's not even remotely like any of the bone they used in the walden era and looks the same as the bone used on later schrades like the parker frost and tradesman knives

To me the blades look like they have the original finish and edge. If somebody did scotch brite the blades it's too close for me to tell. No signs of use or sharpening on them. The tangs look clean without pits or staining that would indicate the knife was used and then later cleaned.

It's definitely an oddball. I would not pay much for it assuming I would want it. The asking price is silly.

[tongueriver]

I defer to Paul's opinion on the blades.

[thefarside]

Roland,
Look at the two pictures Cal posted which show the scale fit to the bolsters. Note the metal removed from the bolsters when the original handles were hafted. See the current scales are smooth at those indentations and would not have caused the metal removal shown when hafted.
That is why I believe they (the scales) have definitely been replaced.
Jim

[KnifeSlinger#81]

Going through an old thread in the schrade forum I came across some discussion and photos that may shed light on the origin of the bone on this 881. We may have all been wrong about it being a rehandle. It could possibly be a scarce example of a late bone schrade walden from the ellenville factory with a scarce jigging pattern. If lt632ret could chime in maybe he can shed some light on it.


Here's a link to the page with this discussion of the subject in the schrade forum.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2282&start=240


Take a close look at the bone on this barlow and compare it to the 881 in question. This is LT's photo. The stamp can't be seen in the photo but it was posted by him amongst other schrade walden's and that was the entire subject matter of that specific post so I take his word that it's a SW.

This is what LT posted years ago about the late SW bone.

This question sometimes comes up at shows. Usually from collectors who have been doing it for a while and consider themselves experts. I have seen them pick them up and say this jigging is wrong. The answer is in the statment I made earlier 56-59 made in Ellenville. When the move was made not all the old equiptment ie jigging dies ect were reinstituted and or used in the new ( ie ULSTER plant ). They refurbished machines for increased and more varied production. When they did they used some of the old jigging dies and some new. As with replaced tang stamps ( when they wear out) while they may all say the same thing they often are not exactly the same. from 46 until 56 a matter of 10 years in walden under Schrade Walden when they jigged handles they were still using the same machinery that they made Schrade cuts from for years before. So collectors are not used to seeing the sightly different variations. Most are not aware of this reason. So they assume that there is something wrong . Actually the funny part is that these under Schrade Walden these were only made until the old material ran out about 3 or 4 years so these under Schrade walden are among the most rare bone versions Schrade ever made. However explaining this to some genius at a show is virtually impossible since it must be a fake because they are experts who have collected Schrades for years and do not recognize the early Ulster, Schrade Walden variation. Versus the earlier Walden Schrade cut and Schrade Walden style. I have another display but filled with pearls made during this period again until the old material ran out. Never a question on them even though the knives themselves are exactly the same as the jigged bone versions. Now to further complicate matters when Schrade did start making jigged bone handles again ( 70tys 80tys ect special issues) they actually used some of the same jigging from the late fiftys that they had not used since then. However the tangs were changed. I suppose someone could have bought a new delrin knife in the 60tys in the anticipation of Schrade opting to start producing jigged handles for special issues in the 80tys saved the original knife in new condition then 20 years later bought the anticipated special edition and then exchanged handles so you would have to buy the knife for about 10 or 15 dollars in the 60 tys save it for 20 years then buy the heritage or working mans set or some thing similar for 40 or 50 dollars changed hands making the heritage obviously not original putting in the hours needed and had the old style fiftys jigged bone handles on a pre 72 Schrade Walden which in the 80tys might have been worth 50 to 75 dollars. Try and explain this to this 75 year old guy at a show who has seen the old style all his life has about 5 cents on a dollar of actual knowledge and has no real knowledge of what the history is. In my case it is a bit easier since I bought and was given these knives as they are in the 60 tys and early seventys. Many by people who were employed by Schrade.

This type of misunderstanding ( conflicting enigma ) is not unique to just these. In 46 ( approx) Schrade cut went to Schrade Walden until then there automatic hunters under Schrade cut had been handled in jigged bone they still were until the existing stock was used up then they went to a composite ( ie early plastic ) jigged handle. The fact is these knifes in bone while legit because some were made this way. In reality most that you find this way have been rehandled because the bone was only used for a short period . This happens because bone can be found and copied the early composite plastic is totally impossible to replace and it gets brittle and this material has not been made in 50 years. So in reality down the road these in plastic will be worth more than the older Schrade cuts or Schrade Walden varietys do to rarity . I have seen those same Schrade experts look down there nose at them "don't want no dang plastic Schrade Walden hunter in plastic got one in bone? " Sure right here genius, genuine cowshin 6 months old . A little knowledge is a lot more dangerous than you might believe. Another example is the orange paratrooper knife. Made by Schrade, Camillus, and Logan Smithe none of them were great but the Schrade and Camillus were servicable and useful, the Logans were so bad the army cancelled the contract. Now which do you think is worth more you guessed it The Logan. why? supply and demand if you are a collector you want one of each the Logans were so bad it is becoming impossible to find one in decent condition.

What happens with a company like Schrade is that the people who really know the answers to why these things happened pass on and this history is distorted and changed perhapes that is why It aggravates me so. It is a good question Charlie unfortunately it takes all this to answer it. If the Schrade collection still existed to day you could simply look at it and as a physical reference all this would be visually self evident it would jump right out no words and just by looking you could see the entire evolution. LT

[FRJ]

Good research and post, Paul.

[Mumbleypeg]

I appreciate the research, and reading the information provided from LT. I am not at all knowledgeable of things “Schrade”.

However I do not believe the handle covers on the OP knife to be original to the knife. This article from an old Case Collectors Club newsletter explains it better than I ever could. (Click to enlarge).

It may be an article about Case, but hafting and polishing is hafting and polishing. And that “sucking out” phenomena described in the article has left marks in the bolsters of the OP knife inconsistent with the handle covers it now wears. There are “sucking out” marks (indentions) in the bolster edge that would have been created during hafting by adjacent jigging indentations. But the bone presently adjacent to them has no corresponding jigging indentations, as can be seen in this picture from the OP.

Ken

[FRJ]

Very interesting information here.

[Dinadan]

This is an interesting thread. Thanks for the insight, fellows. Paul, that post from LT was particularly interesting.

Here is an example of the questionable bone Schrades that I own. The only thing that has made me wonder about it is the generally pristine condition. This is the kind of knife that if I did learn that it is a fake: I would still love it!

[doglegg]

Amazing information gents. Thanks.

[KnifeSlinger#81]

Ken thank you for the hafting information. You raise a good point. When I have some time I will inspect some of my delrin and bone schrades and see how their bolsters look in this area, to see if any look different or the same as the suspect 881.

This is an interesting thread. Thanks for the insight, fellows. Paul, that post from LT was particularly interesting.

Here is an example of the questionable bone Schrades that I own. The only thing that has made me wonder about it is the generally pristine condition. This is the kind of knife that if I did learn that it is a fake: I would still love it!

It's good to see more examples of this type of jig on a walden knife. Whatever the provenance of the bone on your knife it looks very nice to me. The jig pattern does looks the same as the later parker frost and limited edition schrades of the 70's and 80's, but the three walden's that I've now seen with this jig have much more depth that go closer to the bolsters than the parkers and other limited knives. That raises a question to me; If they have been rehandled why would these suspect bone walden knives have so much more depth and quality to the jigging than what is seen on the later limited edition bone knives, which have a more watered down version of the same jig. (At least that the case from what I've seen to this point).


I get too set in what I know of schrade (rather, what I think I know) and don't really think about other possibilities outside of that. In other words, sometimes I think I know everything, which is not a good way of thinking. As it has been said anything can happen with schrade and that's something I need to keep in mind when studying these mystery knives instead of assuming. With this information about late SW bone from LT I am trying to keep an open mind about this subject 881. I am still unsure about it but I'm not ready to condemn it either, as I was before. Some schrades are easy to figure out, some are not. The late red wavy jig bone used on schrade walden's seems to be fairly well known and I haven't seen anybody question it's authenticity, but it may not be the only post peachseed bone schrade walden used before the delrin takeover. However that same wavy jig carried on for years with the open stock delrin knives so it's a little easier to "authenticate" the red wavy bone.