All About Pocket Knives

I happen to have had an unpleasant first hand experience with this knife and this seller. Bad knife, bad seller.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-schrad ... SwsQJeRc~o

Calvin might you share a few details. Likely something here for us to learn.
kj

I'm with KJ, Calvin.
I've said it before, not much is more irritating than someone yelling, "FAKE!", then just walking away.
Any intell you could provide would be greatly appreciated

I am not apologizing for 'walking away.' I did not have time to go into detail but I wanted to raise a flag to perhaps forestall someone from posting a hasty bid before looking more closely. The frame and covers are Schrade CutCo, pre-1947, in the heavily utilized 3 5/8 inches closed equal end pattern. There is one Schrade CutCo blade in this knife, a stubby clip blade which is un-used but rusty. However I have never seen this blade type in a Schrade CutCo cattle knife. There is a worn Schrade Walden blade which appeared to be a large spear when newer. There is also a moderately worn Schrade Walden sheepfoot blade. The fourth blade is unmarked. Initial look seems to be a punch blade. It is not. It has been ground down to a sliver from some unknown blade and just barely tucks into the knife. A punch blade would not have even have been able to close. I do not think that even one of the blades in this knife originally was found in that frame. Nothing like this appears in any of the catalogs, and in the Schrade Walden years there were no 3 5/8" 'senior' cattle knives, although they marketed the 'junior' cattle knife, the 856. I had this knife in my hands, much to my embarrassment and studied it at length, coming to the aforesaid conclusions in the process. Your mileage may differ.

When you bought this knife did you know that one blade was marked Schrade Cut Co. and two blades Schrade-Walden ?
Have you ever seen a legitimate Schrade knife that had both SCC & S-W blades in it ?
kj

Thank you Calvin. I certainly appreciate it.
You mention someone who may make a hasty bid without looking more closely. Shame on them. Caveat emptor. If you're not going to take the time to research and scrutinize your purchase, you get what's coming.
Sounds a bit harsh, maybe, but it's one reason I like to see information similar to your second post - it educates us know-nots!

I think the knife could be correct for Schrade pattern # 9173. My 1926 catalog reprint shows the knife, 4 blade 3 5/8" cattle knife. The spear blade is way used and the blade next to the spear is an equally well used up pen blade. Unusual to see the short clip blade in such good condition with the other blades used and well used but stranger things have happened.

Wayne, what about one blade marked Schrade Cut Co. and 2 others marked Schrade-Walden ? Understandable, but i have not seen a knife with both markings.
kj

btrwtr wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:17 am I think the knife could be correct for Schrade pattern # 9173. My 1926 catalog reprint shows the knife, 4 blade 3 5/8" cattle knife. The spear blade is way used and the blade next to the spear is an equally well used up pen blade. Unusual to see the short clip blade in such good condition with the other blades used and well used but stranger things have happened.

Good eye! Looks like a boogered-up example that has been re-bladed in odd ways by possibly the latter-day company, Schrade Walden. Why the condition of the three bad blades do not jive with the one good blade is puzzling. Anyway, it is not much of a knife at this point.

The pattern looks correct except the spear should not have a long pull. The unstamped pen blade is strange as is the blend of cut co and walden stamped blades. It's not unlikely to think some newer blades have been put in this frame.

kootenay joe wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:22 am Wayne, what about one blade marked Schrade Cut Co. and 2 others marked Schrade-Walden ? Understandable, but i have not seen a knife with both markings.
kj

Can't say that I recall a Schrade Cut/Schrade Walden transition knife stamping but I wouldn't rule it out. I wouldn't rule out the long pull master spear either but the knife does pose some questions that might not be answered. I'd love to get my hands on a righteous example of that pattern.

btrwtr wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:55 pm I'd love to get my hands on a righteous example of that pattern.

Yep!

Wayne I would not rule out a long pull blade when the catalog shows a nail nick either, as sometimes the actual knives and catalog images are not exact, but the fact that is has a usa walden stamp is strange. They didn't stamp usa on the blades until the 50's.

Quote: "They didn't stamp usa on the blades until the 50's."
Thank you Paul. This is good to know.
kj

Many sources give a either mid 1940's, 1946 or even 1948 for a date when USA was added to the Walden stamps. Not sure what is correct or where the mid 1950's information comes from but it does contradict much of what is in print.

btrwtr wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:29 pm Many sources give a either mid 1940's, 1946 or even 1948 for a date when USA was added to the Walden stamps. Not sure what is correct or where the mid 1950's information comes from but it does contradict much of what is in print.

It probably was the early 50s and it was more of a gradual changeover, pattern by pattern. The change of ownership to Imperial was official 4/1/46 and the first tang stamp they used was the 3 line SCHRADE / WALDEN / NY. The catalog images from the late 40s show this stamp and even into the early 50s you can still find this stamp in the catalog along with the USA stamp – but that might just mean they were using old renderings for the catalogs – they did that. A good example is this Schrade 917. The pattern was made from 1950-1953 and you can see in the pic that both stamps are found on it so we know this pattern changed during that window. When the USA was added, another thing was added – pattern numbers on the back of the tang. The ‘modern’ pattern numbers show up in 1950. Before that they were sticking with Cut Co numbers. The SCHRADE / WALDEN / NY tang stamped knives never have a pattern number on them which means the USA addition had to be after the 1950 pattern number change. I believe they started making the change around 1951 or 1952 and I’m guessing it took a couple of years to work all the old stamps out of the catalog. On the OP knife - that is a weird little clip on there. I've never seen that on another pattern and if I didn't see it in the catalog I would have thought someone tipped it and reground to that length.

Nicely done, Jason; thank you. This is the first time I heard April of '46. I had always heard December.

I don't understand this part: "The change of ownership to Imperial was official 4/1/46"
How does Imperial Knife Co. come into this ?
In 1946 the Baers who owned Ulster Co. bought Schrade Cut Co and renamed it "Schrade Walden" (because the factory was in Walden N.Y.)
It was not until 1984 that Imperial Knife co was joined with Schrade USA to become "Imperial Schrade".
This is how i have understood the history. Does it need correcting to include Imperial in 1946 ?
kj

btrwtr wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:29 pm Many sources give a either mid 1940's, 1946 or even 1948 for a date when USA was added to the Walden stamps. Not sure what is correct or where the mid 1950's information comes from but it does contradict much of what is in print.

I have my info from posts by lt632ret. According to him the USA began to be added to the walden stamp around 1953 or 54. LT has a lot of information from people that were at schrade so I trust his info.

kootenay joe wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:59 pm I don't understand this part: "The change of ownership to Imperial was official 4/1/46"
How does Imperial Knife Co. come into this ?
In 1946 the Baers who owned Ulster Co. bought Schrade Cut Co and renamed it "Schrade Walden" (because the factory was in Walden N.Y.)
It was not until 1984 that Imperial Knife co was joined with Schrade USA to become "Imperial Schrade".
This is how i have understood the history. Does it need correcting to include Imperial in 1946 ?
kj

The bears owned imperial at the time as well. From then on schrade was under that umbrella but the imperial schrade name did not come until later.

Schrade moved out of walden around 1957 but they used the walden name until 1973. Name changes didn't always happen immediately.

Bear recruited the Mirandos and Fazzano (Imperial) to help him (Ulster) fill orders for the Gov't at the start of the war. They formed Kingston together to make military knives and merged Ulster and Imperial and Kingston a couple of years later to form Imperial Knife Associated Companies (IKAC). Schrade did not have any Gov't contracts and was just about at a standstill and going broke while IKAC exploded to become the largest supplier for the war effort. It was Domoenic Fazzano's idea to buy Schrade. Baer is always the name associated with Schrade but he had partners and he actually didn't take over the reigns after the purchase. Joseph Schrade stayed on as president of Schrade Walden for another dozen years or so.

tongueriver wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:46 pmThis is the first time I heard April of '46. I had always heard December.

December is what I heard too but an old newspaper clipping says Schrade Walden was formed in March and became official April 1.

Imperial was owned by the Mirando family until they sold to the Baers in 1984.
In 1947 the Baers & Mirandos came to some sort of an agreement to cooperate but ownership of Imperial did not change.
Did Mirandos partially bankroll the Schrade Cut Co purchase as 'silent partners' ?
I am getting off topic but i find knife company history intriguing because it is full of secrets and assumptions and there is still much to uncover.
kj

Oops, i was typing my post when the above explanation was posted. It was a rather complex deal !
kj

kootenay joe wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:43 pm Imperial was owned by the Mirando family until they sold to the Baers in 1984.
In 1947 the Baers & Mirandos came to some sort of an agreement to cooperate but ownership of Imperial did not change.
Did Mirandos partially bankroll the Schrade Cut Co purchase as 'silent partners' ?
I am getting off topic but i find knife company history intriguing because it is full of secrets and assumptions and there is still much to uncover.
kj

Oops, i was typing my post when the above explanation was posted. It was a rather complex deal !
kj

All of the cutlery manufacturers in the Hudson Valley region had friendly relationships with each other and a good amount of inbreeding (except Remington apparently, Dwight Devine hated them for their success.) It's also true that none of these companies - at that time - were owned outright. Baer had investors behind him when he bought Ulster and Imperial was started by the Mirandos but soon took Fazzano in as a 'hands on' investor. I think in 1984 there was a name change that coincided with Baer buying all outstanding shares in Camillus - I think.

Anyway, the info on the 1940s timeline are actually Albert Baer's own words:

"...Domenic asked me to join the Imperial Family. He told me the story of his “sale” of IKCo. stock which FAM never executed. In 1947, we merged. He had the idea of buying Schrade, which I did and paid for it with 3 knives -our $125. gold knife, $10. retail pocket knife and a $5. knife..)

A lot of good information here. The OP knife took on a life of it's own.