1935-1950 Western woodcraft model

[67cuda]

Prior to buying this, I had no idea Western made the old marbles woodcraft model. Any comments on this subject ? Growing up, my dad was very “ cowboy “, and this was expected of me as well, but I rebelled against it tooth and nail, lol ! I said this to help the reader understand why I turned my nose up at western knives. I’m now finding that even though I thought this was a cheap brand, it is absolutely tough as nails and quite easily made very sharp. My first 1970’s W-36 changed my mind. Talk about a thick full tang ! It weighs 7 ounces. Nearly half a pound for such a standard size hunting knife. I’d put it up against my buck knives any day.
By the way people, stop promoting the term “Bushcraft“ in America. This is not an American term. The proper American term is “ woodcraft “. We have woods, not bush ! Please keep this in mind because terminology manipulation is being pushed with great purpose.

[orvet]

Personally, I think the old carbon steel Westerns had some of the best carbon steel that was ever put in a blade!
Thats a nice one you have!

[67cuda]

Personally, I think the old carbon steel Westerns had some of the best carbon steel that was ever put in a blade!
Thats a nice one you have!

Thanks orvet. I have yet to receive the woodcraft model I just bought, but going by the steel in the 70’s W36, I might agree with that assessment. Very easy to get a super sharp edge. I wish I wouldn’t have passed on them just because of the name growing up. You live and learn, right ? The woodcraft I just payed $31 Bucks for, ( hopefully a good price ), and the W36 was part of a bulk buy. That bulk buy got me interested in a few things I wouldn’t have normally touched previously.

[kootenay joe]

The handle on the Woodcraft is made of stacked leather rings over a straight tang. The W-36 has what i think is the split tang type of handle specific to Western. When did Western introduce the split tang handle ?
Regarding "bush vs. woods", i live in Canada and we use the term "bush" to mean any large piece of undisturbed treed land including vast areas of Canada's North. For example we might say "the hunter was lost in the bush for 5 days". Rarely would you hear "the hunter was lost in the woods for 5 days".
And when we do use "woods" it is more to refer to a smaller piece of treed land like a patch between 2 areas of development, whereas "bush" means more like wilderness.
kj

[67cuda]

The handle on the Woodcraft is made of stacked leather rings over a straight tang. The W-36 has what i think is the split tang type of handle specific to Western. When did Western introduce the split tang handle ?
Regarding "bush vs. woods", i live in Canada and we use the term "bush" to mean any large piece of undisturbed treed land including vast areas of Canada's North. For example we might say "the hunter was lost in the bush for 5 days". Rarely would you hear "the hunter was lost in the woods for 5 days".
And when we do use "woods" it is more to refer to a smaller piece of treed land like a patch between 2 areas of development, whereas "bush" means more like wilderness.
kj

The term “ Bush “ is also used in alaska as well as Canada, but not in the lower 48. It has never been a term used throughout history in the United States. This is a European term. Australia, Africa, Canada, are you getting the picture ? The knife design was called “ woodcraft “, for the same reasons someone is called a “ woodsman “, not bushman. Canada is still far more European, and I would argue, still controlled By Europe, even though Canadians will argue the clear evidence of this.
As far as the split tang, I believe several companies used this. I haven’t researched when, and who introduced this design. Actually, I believe it a much stronger design personally, as long as thick steel is used. Thanks for your response Joe.

[Gunsil]

Western patented the split tang construction and it was not used by other companies with only one exception I know of. There are many knives with that construction and different marks on them but they were contract made by Western. The only exception I know of is one rare early KA-BAR hollow handle model which had split tang construction and pre-date's Western's patent. I believe it is where Western got the idea, and the Platts and Browns were related.

[tongueriver]

Western applied for the dual tang patent in 1931. Knives made in late 1931 and early 1932 were marked "Patent Applied For" (sometimes with Patent and/or Applied abbreviated.) Knives in late 1932 and 1933 were stamp "Patent Pending" or "Pat Pending". After the patent was granted, from 1934 to 1953, the word "Patented" or "PAT'D' or some version of the word Patented w/ the patent number 1,967,468 was stamped on all knives constructed with the dual tang. Late 40s to 52/53ish, the stamp could be "PAT'D Made in USA".
I have .pdf file of the original patent but that file type is not supported on AAPK. They did not make their own fixed blades until somewhere around 1927 or 1928; they were imported from Back East.
As far as I know, no other cutlery attempted patent infringement (In my opinion it was a stupid marketing idea anyway). All Westerns with a few exceptions used this bifurcated tang construction, no matter what the handle material. If one can see evidence of two pins through the pommel, that is the construction. What was done after the Boulder years I do not know because I have no interest in those knives.
There is a subforum here on AAPK dedicated to Western knives and all questions and answers are revealed there to those who search.
The Woodcraft pattern (and I believe that word was copyrighted at first) was invented by Marbles. It was copied by (I believe) EVERY American cutlery who made fixed knives. Schrade CutCo did not make fixed blade knives. A bunch also came in from Germany. I believe most of that derived from the American GI presence there after WWII. A person could make a collection of nothing but this pattern which could be very large.
Now here is an opinion which might be disputed: I think that pretty much all the old steel from the early makers was 'good' steel, in the sense that it was soft and sharpened up easily. Most of it kept an edge reasonably well, but if you look at very many of them you will see that a lot of sharpening loss was going on. Modern harder steels are harder to sharpen but probably keep an edge longer. This battle amongst the troops will rage forever.
Oh! Hi, Gene! I be a slower typist!

[67cuda]

Western patented the split tang construction and it was not used by other companies with only one exception I know of. There are many knives with that construction and different marks on them but they were contract made by Western. The only exception I know of is one rare early KA-BAR hollow handle model which had split tang construction and pre-date's Western's patent. I believe it is where Western got the idea, and the Platts and Browns were related.

So, .....For instance, Queen steel used a non-split tang then ? This is a 58-60 model. I haven’t had one apart yet.

[tongueriver]

You are not listening. Look at the pommel.

[67cuda]

Western applied for the dual tang patent in 1931. Knives made in late 1931 and early 1932 were marked "Patent Applied For" (sometimes with Patent and/or Applied abbreviated.) Knives in late 1932 and 1933 were stamp "Patent Pending" or "Pat Pending". After the patent was granted, from 1934 to 1953, the word "Patented" or "PAT'D' or some version of the word Patented w/ the patent number 1,967,468 was stamped on all knives constructed with the dual tang. Late 40s to 52/53ish, the stamp could be "PAT'D Made in USA".
I have .pdf file of the original patent but that file type is not supported on AAPK. They did not make their own fixed blades until somewhere around 1927 or 1928; they were imported from Back East.
As far as I know, no other cutlery attempted patent infringement (In my opinion it was a stupid marketing idea anyway). All Westerns with a few exceptions used this bifurcated tang construction, no matter what the handle material. If one can see evidence of two pins through the pommel, that is the construction. What was done after the Boulder years I do not know because I have no interest in those knives.
There is a subforum here on AAPK dedicated to Western knives and all questions and answers are revealed there to those who search.
The Woodcraft pattern (and I believe that word was copyrighted at first) was invented by Marbles. It was copied by (I believe) EVERY American cutlery who made fixed knives. Schrade CutCo did not make fixed blade knives. A bunch also came in from Germany. I believe most of that derived from the American GI presence there after WWII. A person could make a collection of nothing but this pattern which could be very large.
Now here is an opinion which might be disputed: I think that pretty much all the old steel from the early makers was 'good' steel, in the sense that it was soft and sharpened up easily. Most of it kept an edge reasonably well, but if you look at very many of them you will see that a lot of sharpening loss was going on. Modern harder steels are harder to sharpen but probably keep an edge longer. This battle amongst the troops will rage forever.
Oh! Hi, Gene! I be a slower typist!

Thanks for today’s old blade class, lol ! I have so much to learn yet, however, it seems like most of history, there is little cut and dry information on old blade manufacturing. It seems that many presume far too much. History is as complex as every human involved.

[kootenay joe]

Wow, great replies to my question on the 'split tang' construction. Thank you, especially to tongueriver for taking the time to type such a clear and detailed post.
As the title of this thread includes the dates 1935-1950 it indicates that not all Western States fixed blades were made using split tang construction. I had thought that once Western began using split tang they stopped using the standard single tang construction. However the woodcraft model shown here indicates otherwise.
As for Canada being "controlled" by Europe i think it would be more accurate to say "influenced by" which is something that i and i believe most Canadians are grateful for. There are many aspects of European culture and approach to life that enrich Canada.
kj

[kootenay joe]

You can think what you want about Canada. Canadians don't mind others' opinions. The philosophy here is more "Live and Let Live".
kj

[67cuda]

You can think what you want about Canada. Canadians don't mind others' opinions. The philosophy here is more "Live and Let Live".
kj

Now there’s that wishywashy Canadian mindset, lol !
Just having a bit of American fun.

[zzyzzogeton]

The woodcraft knife is the L88. Since it does NOT have "L88" stamped into the pile side ricasso, it was made between 1950 and 1953 for sure, MAYBE 1948/1949.

A lack of 1946 - 1949 catalog pages makes it difficult to put a start date on the knives that first appear in the 1950 catalog pages. One can "assume" if the knife has a steel guard and a "MADE IN USA" stamp on either ricasso, it is a late 1945-1946 knife, since it took awhile for brass to become available for guards.

The tang stamp chart is both correct and incorrect. Correct in that every stamp depicted was used by Western. Incorrect in that some were only used on fixed blades, some only on folders, some on both at the same time and on both NOT at the same time.

One grievous error is the WESTERN over USA identified as "1961 - 1977". Maybe it was used for folders in that manner (I only study the fixed blades and only dabble in folders) BUT not on the fixed blades as far as I have been able to identify/confirm in 30+ years of collecting and studying Westerns.

Excepting the BSA versions of the time period (1961 - 1977), 1961 to 1967 fixed blades were stamped
WESTERN
BOULDER COLO
USA
on the mark side, with the MODEL NUMBER on the pile side.

From 1967/1968 to 1972, the Mark side stamp remained the same but the model number shifted from the pile ricasso to the guard.

Commencing with 1973, BOULDER COLO was dropped from all stamps (fixed and folder). Here is when the

WESTERN
USA

stamp appears, with the model number REMAINING on the guard. This arrangement ran until 1976, as in 1977 model numbers shifted back to the mark side ricasso and a date code added.

At least for fixed blades, this is where the mass confusion comes in for the stamp with some folks claiming their Western dates to "pick-a-date", where "pick-a-date" has been 1928, 1930, 1931, 1950, ...........

People don't look at the dang GUARD for a model number. For literally dozens of knives in my collection and 100s I passed on, I have asked the fleabay seller to look at the guard and see if a number was stamped there. Sure enough, my hypothesis has ALWAYS proven correct. For many other knives, I have used guard reflections on the blade to identify the model number. I have gotten really good at looking at angled guards to determine if a model number is on them.

As to the BSA knives - they are a study in and of themselves that I am still working on.

I'm working on a Western FIXED blade stamp chart. I'm close to "finishing" it for now, until I encounter new ones.

[Gunsil]

Wow, great replies to my question on the 'split tang' construction. Thank you, especially to tongueriver for taking the time to type such a clear and detailed post.
As the title of this thread includes the dates 1935-1950 it indicates that not all Western States fixed blades were made using split tang construction. I had thought that once Western began using split tang they stopped using the standard single tang construction. However the woodcraft model shown here indicates otherwise.
As for Canada being "controlled" by Europe i think it would be more accurate to say "influenced by" which is something that i and i believe most Canadians are grateful for. There are many aspects of European culture and approach to life that enrich Canada.
kj

Roland, the "woodcraft" style Western shown by Cuda most certainly has the split tang construction as is easily seen by the two pins holding the pommel on. I am sure you know not all of us Americans have the same views of Canada or Canadians as some others here. I'm thinking maybe Cuda never heard of the First Special Service Force (called "black devils" by the Germans), a WW2 commando group formed with Canadians and Americans as members and one of the fiercest groups of fighting men ever assembled and the basis for our American "special service" groups of today.

[67cuda]

Wow, great replies to my question on the 'split tang' construction. Thank you, especially to tongueriver for taking the time to type such a clear and detailed post.
As the title of this thread includes the dates 1935-1950 it indicates that not all Western States fixed blades were made using split tang construction. I had thought that once Western began using split tang they stopped using the standard single tang construction. However the woodcraft model shown here indicates otherwise.
As for Canada being "controlled" by Europe i think it would be more accurate to say "influenced by" which is something that i and i believe most Canadians are grateful for. There are many aspects of European culture and approach to life that enrich Canada.
kj

Roland, the "woodcraft" style Western shown by Cuda most certainly has the split tang construction as is easily seen by the two pins holding the pommel on. I am sure you know not all of us Americans have the same views of Canada or Canadians as some others here. I'm thinking maybe Cuda never heard of the First Special Service Force (called "black devils" by the Germans), a WW2 commando group formed with Canadians and Americans as members and one of the fiercest groups of fighting men ever assembled and the basis for our American "special service" groups of today.

Gunsil, just where did you grow up ? You must be a city, or suburbanite. Those folks are usually pretty accepting and wishywashy. All they know is people. People, people, people. America is more than just sheltered people. The farther you go from populated areas, the more American pride you will find. I am a vet, and most every male in my family since before the war for independence has served, or are serving now. Ask me again if I don’t know my military history........ Now, here’s something I’d like to add. I grew up hunting 2-3 times a week, starting at 2 years old, born in 65, spending most of my time in the woods, and prior too a few years ago, I had never seen the woodcraft design, not even in stores. Now, that means little, I just find it odd, and wonder if it was more territorial in popularity. Then again, growing up we couldn’t afford to miss any shot. Each shot needed a kill. So we didn’t grow up shopping. We grew up creating, and fixing. Were these brands mainly carried by chain stores ? We were so country in fact, we used the Sears and Roebuck Catalog for anything special. So, in my opinion, if you can’t take a little American pride humor, or inter-military branch banter, you’re no one I want to meet, and trust me, you don’t want to deal with me in person. I’ll make bikers and truckers blush, lol ! We must desensitize society. The elite want us overly sensitive. Much easier to control. So I desensitize every chance I get, with great purpose, not because I have a low I.Q. or that I’m under-educated. That couldn’t be farther from the truth. I encourage people to relax, cut loose, and help desensitize society. This is the first thing we need to do to combat the NWO. Yes, the NWO exists, lol !

[Gunsil]

Wow!! Didn't expect such a belligerent reply!! You certainly must be a super American patriot!! Like many of them, talking out of the wrong end of your body. My grandmother had a farm in NW OH, spent a lot of growing up there. 1947 myself, grew up shooting a lot, fished a lot for family mess. Ancestor was at Concord and Breed's Hill, father captured by the Nazis at the bulge. Don't prattle this pseudo patriotic bunk to me. Making fun of foreigners, Canadians included is not a fine American attribute. Nor is calling folks you have never met names or assuming you know everything about people by their geographic locations. Does the fact you think you make bikers blush impress anybody at all? Regarding woodcraft style hunting knives, I found a stag handled KA-BAR version in a chicken coop on an abandoned farm when I was 11 or 12 and carried it throughout the Boy Scouts, still have it. Still have the side by side .410 my grandpa gave me when I was ten too. I know Montgomery Wards sold this style of knives through their catalogs, bet Sears did too, you probably just weren't paying attention. On the OH farm my cousins and I looked at the ladie's undies ads in the Sears catalog which were our exposure to "naughty" pictures. Maybe you looked more at those than the knife ads. Have a nice pseudo patriotic life!! By the way just because you have some kind of preconceived notions of who I am or what I represent I will still help you ID old hunting knives, I have collected them for sixty years and studied them well.

[kootenay joe]

cuda this is a knife forum for people to share what they know about knives with others. It is not competitive here. It's o.k. if a person is a novice just beginning to learn about knives or a very experienced knifer, a true 'expert' in a certain 'area' of knives. All are accorded the same respect. Members rarely brag about who they are or their accomplishments and frequently are supportive of others who might be having some personal difficulties.
For the most part we treat others here as valued friends and this is in part, why so many of us really appreciate AAPK.
So please share your knife knowledge and knife experiences as well as some of your personal life if you feel like it. There is no need to try to be more patriotic, more 'country' or more anything than the next guy. Just be friendly. Life is tough enough without trying to stir up controversy.
kj

[67cuda]

cuda this is a knife forum for people to share what they know about knives with others. It is not competitive here. It's o.k. if a person is a novice just beginning to learn about knives or a very experienced knifer, a true 'expert' in a certain 'area' of knives. All are accorded the same respect. Members rarely brag about who they are or their accomplishments and frequently are supportive of others who might be having some personal difficulties.
For the most part we treat others here as valued friends and this is in part, why so many of us really appreciate AAPK.
So please share your knife knowledge and knife experiences as well as some of your personal life if you feel like it. There is no need to try to be more patriotic, more 'country' or more anything than the next guy. Just be friendly. Life is tough enough without trying to stir up controversy.
kj

I’m actually done with you doll collectors. If a knife serves no purpose, it’s merely folly, like women collecting dolls. Of course, there’s the lowest of this, the profiteer. I see no reason to stay here. Not one design I don’t already own, do I seek. Good luck girls !

[67cuda]

Wow!! Didn't expect such a belligerent reply!! You certainly must be a super American patriot!! Like many of them, talking out of the wrong end of your body. My grandmother had a farm in NW OH, spent a lot of growing up there. 1947 myself, grew up shooting a lot, fished a lot for family mess. Ancestor was at Concord and Breed's Hill, father captured by the Nazis at the bulge. Don't prattle this pseudo patriotic bunk to me. Making fun of foreigners, Canadians included is not a fine American attribute. Nor is calling folks you have never met names or assuming you know everything about people by their geographic locations. Does the fact you think you make bikers blush impress anybody at all? Regarding woodcraft style hunting knives, I found a stag handled KA-BAR version in a chicken coop on an abandoned farm when I was 11 or 12 and carried it throughout the Boy Scouts, still have it. Still have the side by side .410 my grandpa gave me when I was ten too. I know Montgomery Wards sold this style of knives through their catalogs, bet Sears did too, you probably just weren't paying attention. On the OH farm my cousins and I looked at the ladie's undies ads in the Sears catalog which were our exposure to "naughty" pictures. Maybe you looked more at those than the knife ads. Have a nice pseudo patriotic life!! By the way just because you have some kind of preconceived notions of who I am or what I represent I will still help you ID old hunting knives, I have collected them for sixty years and studied them well.

I see you. Nothing spectacular in you. I’m done with you ladies and your doll collecting. You serve no further purpose.

[btrwtr]

Wow!! Didn't expect such a belligerent reply!! You certainly must be a super American patriot!! Like many of them, talking out of the wrong end of your body. My grandmother had a farm in NW OH, spent a lot of growing up there. 1947 myself, grew up shooting a lot, fished a lot for family mess. Ancestor was at Concord and Breed's Hill, father captured by the Nazis at the bulge. Don't prattle this pseudo patriotic bunk to me. Making fun of foreigners, Canadians included is not a fine American attribute. Nor is calling folks you have never met names or assuming you know everything about people by their geographic locations. Does the fact you think you make bikers blush impress anybody at all? Regarding woodcraft style hunting knives, I found a stag handled KA-BAR version in a chicken coop on an abandoned farm when I was 11 or 12 and carried it throughout the Boy Scouts, still have it. Still have the side by side .410 my grandpa gave me when I was ten too. I know Montgomery Wards sold this style of knives through their catalogs, bet Sears did too, you probably just weren't paying attention. On the OH farm my cousins and I looked at the ladie's undies ads in the Sears catalog which were our exposure to "naughty" pictures. Maybe you looked more at those than the knife ads. Have a nice pseudo patriotic life!! By the way just because you have some kind of preconceived notions of who I am or what I represent I will still help you ID old hunting knives, I have collected them for sixty years and studied them well.

I see you. Nothing spectacular in you. I’m done with you ladies and your doll collecting. You serve no further purpose.

You come here looking for information and get it from some very knowledgeable and respected members and then in turn disrespect them. Goodbye and good riddance.

[orvet]

My apologies gentleman, especially to you Roland and our other Canadian members.
Mr. 67cuda has left the forum, permanently.



BTW Cal,
I appreciate your concise history of the Western Woodcraft. I'm going to copy that down for reference!

[bighomer]

Good riddance.

[Colonel26]

Thank you Dale!