WHY IS A KNIFE COUNTERFEIT / FAKE / COBBLED???

[zzyzzogeton]

I'm sure I'm gonna take flak over this post but at this point I don't care, especially since I'm more of a fixed blade person and only USE folders and don't collect them. I still like to LEARN.

While I would be suspicious of ANY knife claiming to be handled in Delrin, even "Delrin?", with a dating of before 1960, when Delrin became available, I don't like threads that trumpet "This is counterfeit." or "This is fake." and then fail to SPECIFICALLY state WHAT is counterfeit about a particular knife.

What is obvious to an "expert" is NOT obvious to less knowledgeable folks. I wish "the experts" would LIST exactly WHY a particular knife is fake, counterfeit or cobbled together. To do otherwise is to trumpet "I got a secret and you can figure out what it is."

Granted some miscues are readily observable, like a knife with a Kabar shield and a Case, Primble or Schrade stamped blade but many of the "problem children" have more subtle indicators, such as the wrong awl blade or the wrong can opener blade or a never manufactured blade combination.

So when a thread claiming that "THIS KNIFE IS FAKE" is created, the poster stating that a particular knife is "wrong"should state what the issue is that makes it "wrong". Like "This can opener blade is a 1960s style added to this alledged 1940s knife". Or "Company XXX never made a 3 blade knife with a sheepsfoot blade. This would give the "less than expert guru" a clue as to what to go looking for and comparing it with a picture of the correct knife in a book somewhere.

If anyone notices, when I make a statement, to the best of my knowledge, about WHY I say that a knife was made between date XXXX and date YYYY, I also include my REASONING for said assessment. Fortunately, no ever tries to counterfeit Western or Kabar fixed blades, so I seldom have a reason to explain why "this" knife was not made by XXX Company. Well, except when someone tries to claim that a 1990s/2000s Camillus 5684 is a WW2 fighting knife used by their Army grandfather at the Battle of the Bulge.

My goal is to make AAPK a repository of the knowledge I have accumulated over 50+ years of accumulating/collecting sharp pointy objects. When I'm gone, anything I have learned that is not written down somewhere will be lost and someone needing/wanting that information will have to reinvent the wheel.

So guys (and the few gals here), when posting that a knife is fake/counterfeit/cobbled together, I encourage y'all to provide the reason it is fake/counterfeit/cobbled together. Cryptic inside jokes and comments hinting at "problems" with a knife do not help someone learn.

Okay - I'm hunkered down in my bunker watching tiddly winks contests on 16mm film while listening to 8 track tapes, so let the incoming rounds about why my attitude/opinion is as worthless as tits on a boar hog commence.

[herbva]

I couldn't agree with you more ZZ, which is why I always go to the nth degree of explaining the details about what is bothering me about a given knife. And, Happy New Year buddy!

[Mumbleypeg]

I agree with you. One of my pet peeves also, and I try to do as you request when I post in the counterfeit forum. Actually I think it’s much better now than what it used to be. But there are still too many posts there that do not describe why the knife is not right.

However in defense of those who don’t take time to describe the flaws, it’s sometimes difficult to explain a knife that is an across the room fake other than to say it’s not right, unless you have a picture handy of a correct knife to post for comparison. Just saying it’s the wrong frame, or the wrong shield, etc isn’t much help to a novice who doesn’t know what the right frame or shield is in the first place. To know that you have to study the “right” knives and know them well enough to spot a fake. Even then a novice can look at two different shields, frames, jigging patterns, etc and not see the differences. At least, it took me a while to learn myself, and I’m still learning!

For example ZZ, you’re pretty good at identifying fake fixed blades. It’s often not that easy to explain what’s wrong with the fake, but you know it isn’t right. We should all try to do a better job passing on what we’ve learned.

Ken

[Steve Warden]

Hear, hear!
I'm with ya, ZZ.
I've made several posts over the past years requesting the same thing.
Some folks are very good about explaining and teaching. To those who take the time to do so, thank you!!!
Seems other just want to scream, "FAKE!", turn their backs and walk away, with a, "Figer it out yer sef" attitude.

[bestgear]

My goal is to make AAPK a repository of the knowledge I have accumulated over 50+ years of accumulating/collecting sharp pointy objects

if my memory serves me correctly, that statement aligns 100% with our Founders goal so use that as a model to be an agent of change for others to follow. I’ve seen posts where little or no counterfeit analysis is provided but when asked for what led them to that conclusion, they gladly shared their knowledge. Keep at it brother, your knowledge gained in 50+ years of accumulating/collecting sharp pointy objects is needed on AAPK.

[Dinadan]

I agree with ZZ. I am not an expert on very many knives, so for at least 95% of knives I need some help figuring out what is wrong.

Another point. There have been at least a few posts, maybe more than a few, where someone claims a knife is a fake. And then when a real expert or two weighs in, it turns out that the knife is not a fake. It is the poster's knowledge that is wrong, not the knife. Even Shakespeare said something about that:

The fault, fellow collector, lies is not in the knives,
But in ourselves.

Anyway, I am very loth to trumpet something as a fake unless I am completely certain.

[Ripster]

ZZ. Well said and do agree . Sharing knowledge here is key for some of us in all our diverse areas of collecting ,hoarding ,accumulating,etc.
You’ve helped answer questions on bayonets here when I was struggling for info. And many others have also been a positive active member.
What gets me is when someone makes a comment like ,boring, to a post . And they’ve been here 8,9,10 years or? .and it’s there 3 rd post .
You folks over in the Counterfeit area are great . But some of us do need more info to learn .

[btrwtr]

I couldn't agree more. I know sometimes I forget and feel like I may be pearching to the choir so what I might see as obvious I don't take time to explain. I'll do better.

I would also like to point out the sticky note at the top of the forum requests that people posting here should post a picture of the knife in question. Posting a link that will disappear and leave no trace of the knife and what it looks like is of no use down the road. Ken is good at picking up the slack here all too often and I have done the same at times.

[zzyzzogeton]

When I'm wrong, I admit it.

I said no one counterfeits Western fixed blades. I totally spaced out that there are at least 3 dudes on fleabay that rehandle old Westerns. A couple of them could easily fall into the category of "fake".

One of them puts in his ads on fleabay that he has rehandled the knives. He's not one of the sketchy ones. He is more like our ORVET, reworking old knives and selling them, although he does not go to the effort of putting his mark on them.

The 2 primary fakers imply their wildly colored plastic/acrylic handles that are factory using terms like "mint" and "near mint". One is worse than the other. The least notorious one indicates the handles have been replaced, but that the fancy handles were made by someone who is "an employee of Western knives." Good trick since Western died when Camillus bought the assets of the company back in 1991. He's ships out of California.

The most notorious one uses "mint" and "near mint" on virtually every Western he sells. What makes his falsehoods more believeable is that he ships out of Longmont Colorado, the final home of Western in Colorado.

For the record, Western plastic handled knives were only produced on Bird & Trout models, the 48 and 28 patterns. All the tenite/phenolic plastics were solid colors, no "snakeskin" or any other wild acrylic patterns.

The only colors used were green, orange, red, ivory, yellow and blue. Blue is VERY, VERY seldom seen because they were only made for a very short period of time because they faded rapidly in most cases, from royal blue to a wierd turquoise.

[OLDE CUTLER]

Before I started on AAPK I did not know there was such a thing as a counterfeit knife. I have learned a lot about this from you guys here and appreciated the reasoning given in explaining why you think a particular knife is a fake. Now I can even pick one out myself from time to time.

[rea1eye]

I agree with zz. This is a wonderful forum so I suspect
it may get better after your post.

Bob

[Reverand]

Thank you for posting this.
I have owned pocket knives for all of my life, but had no experience with rare, antique, or expensive knives. I am slowly learning how to spot fakes and repair jobs, and need all of the pointers that I can get!
AAPK is such a great resource only because knowledgeable people are willing to share what they know. We need to keep up that trend!