Pal Navy knife

[OLDE CUTLER]

I have a question about this Pal RH35 USN Mark I shown below. Is the sheath shown the correct one for this knife?

[Gunsil]

No, that sheath is a modern made up one. The PAL RH 35 came in a fiberglass sheath. The sheath shown is not like any of the MK 1 leather sheaths.

[OLDE CUTLER]

No, that sheath is a modern made up one. The PAL RH 35 came in a fiberglass sheath. The sheath shown is not like any of the MK 1 leather sheaths.

OK, thanks for your info.

[eveled]

I believe some deck knives were issued with leather sheaths, but that one definitely is not an original. The fiberglass ones were much more common.

Most of the leather sheaths I have seen for these knives were left handed and of a very different construction than that one. All were brown they had very small rivets or staples, (to conserve brass) . The stapled ones are the reason I believe they are from ww2. They are the same small staples used on the larger mk2 sheaths from ww2.

Just my opinion, it is very difficult to find a picture of a ww2 sailor wearing a knife, and I was not there.

[zzyzzogeton]

I believe some deck knives were issued with leather sheaths, but that one definitely is not an original. The fiberglass ones were much more common.

Most of the leather sheaths I have seen for these knives were left handed and of a very different construction than that one. All were brown they had very small rivets or staples, (to conserve brass) . The stapled ones are the reason I believe they are from ww2. They are the same small staples used on the larger mk2 sheaths from ww2.

Just my opinion, it is very difficult to find a picture of a ww2 sailor wearing a knife, and I was not there.

The sailors who carried fixed blade knives were on boat crews. The run-of-the-mill swabbie MAY have had a pocket knife, but only boat crew carried fixed blades. The "fixed blade for boat crew" requirement went away around 1976/1977. All Mk1s and MK2 were removed from surface ship inventory around 1975 or 1976. The boat crew carry regulation did not disappear until 1978 or 1979, but there were no knives in inventory to be issued.

[eveled]

They were called deck knives. I thought that meant issued to sailors whose job was on deck?

A boat crew? Are we talking smaller vessels? Tenders, PT Boats, landing crafts and such?

[steve99f]

Was in the fleet from 71 to 74, almost everyone had a Buck 110 on their belt. I don't remember seeing any sheath knives but they could have been there. By boat crew I think zz means whaleboats and captains gigs maybe.

[zzyzzogeton]

Types of boat crews vary by ship type.

Your generic warships, i.e., destroyers, frigates, cruisers have 2 types of boats - a Captain's gig and a motor whaleboat (MWB), although a flag capable cruiser may have an Admiral's Barge as well. The captain's gig is usually a 26 ft personnel boat, enclosed. And Admiral's barge is a fancied up 26PE. A MWB is a 26 ft double ended whaleboat primarily used for recovery during man overboard situations, shuttle operations when a ship is anchored out and some ship's hull maintenance evolutions. Boat crew for these would be a Coxswain and a Bowhook, (both from Deck Department), an Engineman from Engineering and a Boat Officer, generally an Ensign (O1) or junior LTjg (O2) (not during hull ops).

Amphibs, (currently LPDs, LHAs, LHDs, LCCs and in my day LPHs, LSTs and LSDs also). The boats on these were the same 2 or 3 as above as well as various landing craft - LCVPs, LCM6s, LCM8s and LCUs. Except for the LCUs, these boats would have a Signalman added and possibly a Hospital Corpsman, depending on the mission of the day. LCUs have permanently assigned boat crews, with a CPO (Chief Petty Office, E7) in charge. Maybe a SCPO, E8, rarely. The LCCs have a Admiral's Barge, an LCVP and 2 Captain's Gigs, although one is reserved for CO's use only.

Carriers will have a motor whaleboat, Captain's Gig, Admiral's Barge and a pair of 40ft utility boats.

Fixed blades were carried mainly by landing craft boat crew who might have a greater need to be cutting lines quickly. As true amphib ops declined in use, the need for fixed blades was relegated as "unnecessary" by the PTB, until they pulled the knives from inventory. When they did, they forgot to change Navy Regs to reflect the change.

I was a dumb-enough almost Ensign that I read the Navy Regs before being commissioned where they pertained to tasks/jobs of junior officers. I read where a boat crew equipment included either a USN MK1 or MK2 knife. So what did I do? I went out and bought one of each at a surplus store, never even thinking about why there were literally 55 gallon barrels of each kind in the store.

On my first ship, USS DENVER (LPD-9), I reported abord and 4 days later deployed to the Western Pacific. Got to the Philippines and during an amphibious training exercise was assigned as a Boat Officer in the "Medical Boat". My crew and I tooled around 400 - 500 yards off the beach boring holes in the ocean for 8 - 12 hours a day. We went out before sunrise and came back about sunset. And YES, I chose to strap on my Navy Regs specified USN MK2.

The XO was near the boat crane as we were lifted up and he yelled at me

"Hey, Z what's that sword hanging on your hip?"

Needless to say, there was a lively conversation held between me, the XO, 1st LT and Supply Officer about the lack of MK1s and MK2s on board. After a demonstration as to why I believed the Navy's decision to eliminate FBs was misguided and showing where they were recommended in Navy Regs, I was allowed to continue carrying mine on boat ops for the next 2-1/2 years I was on DENVER (Sept 1977 - Feb 1980). I was probably the last boat officer to ever pack a MK1 or MK2 on a small boat. Navy Regs finally got changed in late 1978, but my CO/XO let me keep packing it when on boat ops.

[eveled]

Thanks Z! Thanks for the detailed explanation. First hand knowledge is so valuable to a collector.

It explains why belt knives are never seen in pictures of sailors. It is easier to find them with bayonets on their belts, but only if they are holding a rifle. Most of these pictures are either training or landing parties.

That is pretty cool, that you were the last one allowed to carry one.

My Grandfather was in the USN in China before ww2. He saw some action there. My Dad’s favorite hunting knife was a PAL MKI. So I have no USN connection myself but have a fascination with and built a humble collection of USN knives.

[zzyzzogeton]

Thanks Z! Thanks for the detailed explanation. First hand knowledge is so valuable to a collector.

It explains why belt knives are never seen in pictures of sailors. It is easier to find them with bayonets on their belts, but only if they are holding a rifle. Most of these pictures are either training or landing parties.

That is pretty cool, that you were the last one allowed to carry one.

My Grandfather was in the USN in China before ww2. He saw some action there. My Dad’s favorite hunting knife was a PAL MKI. So I have no USN connection myself but have a fascination with and built a humble collection of USN knives. IMG_3020.jpeg

Search for WW2 boat pictures. Fixed blades will be seen frequently, especially on PT boats and landing craft. Sometimes, on landing craft crewmen, all you see is the bottom of the scabbard as the top portion of the knife is obscured by their kapok life jackets. The most famous picture of a PT crewman sporting a fixed blade is due to who is packing the MK1 - John Kennedy on PT-109.