Blade shape purposes

[jaswarb]

Is there a reference or compendium some place containing an explanation of the original purposes behind blade shapes? More broadly not just blade shape but overall knife design I suspect was driven often by needs we no longer understand.
Some shapes quite obviously are suited for specific purposes, the most obvious case is the melon tester, while others are unique to the point of begging the question why, the longer bolster of the Barlow pattern for instance?

Frequently it seems the shape was simply dictated by style or taste of the maker but often the purpose of some shapes seem to be aimed towards something specific and lost to history. For example some of the razor knife derivations seem to be driven by style while some of them seem to offer a nail saving easy opening feature.

I haven't yet found more than some anecdotal references which are often mere speculation. It would be interesting to understand what the everyday use and advantage particular designs or patterns offered.

[jerryd6818]

I too have wondered what the original purpose of certain blade profiles were. Something like a coping blade or a spey (spay?) blade is obvious but what about that big ole' round belly blade in a saddle horn knife. Jeez Louise, there are at least a half dozen or more clip blade profiles. I'll be very interested to see some of the answers.

Here are some blades to start with.

[trail]

I think I can give a good explanation of the squared-off end of a rope knife. The long, straight edge and thick spine of a rope knife are so a mallet could be used to drive the knife through thick rope. This feature almost necessitates a squared-off end since the edge can't curve up to meet the back. This pattern originated in the days of sail, and the square end made it less likely that a sailor working on the lurching deck of a ship would accidentally poke a hole in a sail, himself or another sailor (though the captain was far more concerned about the sail). A probably apocryphal reason was so that sailors fighting with knives would not poke holes in each other. A slashing wound is generally less likely to be lethal than a stabbing wound.

[jaswarb]

Wow thanks for that contribution. I hadn't thought of the hammering never having handled manilla rope of the thickness one would encounter on a windjammer.

The square end makes great sense.

What is the spatula blade for on a doctor's pattern???? Anyone?

[jerryd6818]

Wow thanks for that contribution. I hadn't thought of the hammering never having handled manilla rope of the thickness one would encounter on a windjammer.

The square end makes great sense.

What is the spatula blade for on a doctor's pattern???? Anyone?

I agree. Good post Paul. Everything in your post makes sense.

Regarding the spatula blade in a doctors knife, I have some ideas which are pure speculation. The spatula could be used as an emergency tongue depressor, plus it was used to mix salves and potions but the most common explanation for it's use was counting pills. Supposedly the square butt on the knife was used like a pestle to crush pills (and maybe herbs, etc in folk cures?) To me, it all seems logical.

[Owd Wullie]

I think I can give a good explanation of the squared-off end of a rope knife. The long, straight edge and thick spine of a rope knife are so a mallet could be used to drive the knife through thick rope. This feature almost necessitates a squared-off end since the edge can't curve up to meet the back. This pattern originated in the days of sail, and the square end made it less likely that a sailor working on the lurching deck of a ship would accidentally poke a hole in a sail, himself or another sailor (though the captain was far more concerned about the sail). A probably apocryphal reason was so that sailors fighting with knives would not poke holes in each other. A slashing wound is generally less likely to be lethal than a stabbing wound.

In addition to the details above, one other detail needs to be added about "sailor's knives". In both the USN and the Merchant Marines it was illegal by US law for a sailor to carry a knife with a point on it. I don't know exactly when that law was rescinded or maybe it was just ignored and fell into disuse. They never said anything about pointy knives aboard ship to us during the 'Nam conflict. I kind of think it had to have happened around or just after WWI.

I read one story from the 1880's relating how the Ship's Bos'n (top dog petty officer, head deck ape, and bull goose of the boat, generally a tough hombre who got to be where he was by not only sailing abilities but by being able to whip any SOB's butt that disagreed with his orders. Wooden ships and iron men era.) would inspect his men's knives and snap the tips of any that he found to his disliking, thereby making them a real "sailor's" knife as required by maritime law.

It's also my understanding, that the "razor" blades were made primarily for gents with but one arm. The hollow at the end of the blade can be hooked on a pocket seam and the blade can opened thusly.

[trail]

Great knife and sailor lore, gentlemen. Jaswarb, I think this thread could go far. Thanks for starting it.

[IMBand]

Wouldn't want anyone with a pointy knife in my Life Raft....................

IM

[jaswarb]

I had thought about the tongue depressor although the spatula is somewhat narrow for that purpose but your speculation is precisely why I am hoping to discover a definitive source concerning the origins of patterns and shapes and purposes.

Recently I read about the "pen blade" being a incorrectly labeled for the purpose of cutting quill pens. The author pointed out by the common introduction of the pen blade shape the quill pen had been replaced by mass produced metal pens. The original quill blades had been flat ground on one side and concave on the other to facilitate function. By the 1830's or so pens were manufactured from metal and few people used feather quills at this time which was about the time small pen blades began to show up.

There is probably a great deal of this information scattered about. I am hoping someone here is aware of reference works/work which would contain most of this information.

The speculation is good for filling in the blanks with possibilities.

[jaswarb]

Wullie that is great. Just the kind of color I am searching for. Being a navy brat, I got ears full of deck ape stories. My father was more NCO later LDO than home.

[jaswarb]

Wouldn't want anyone with a pointy knife in my Life Raft....................

IM

Great picture. That knife looks to have been at sea.

[trail]

And while we're on sailor knives - the marlinspike on a rigger or yachtsman's knife is for picking out jammed knots, separating strands during splicing, and in general doing rope work. I recently watched the dockmaster at my marina use one to lever a dockline off a cleat after the water went down and left a boat hanging on it's lines. If the spike locks, it's a rigger, if it doesn't, it's a yachtsman.

It would be nice to find all this stuff in one place, jaswarb, but it may end up that this is the place. Some of these specialized threads at AAPK are probably the best reference sources around.

[Owd Wullie]

Here's a fun one.

NOT a sailor's knife or yachtsman's knife. No sharp point, yet it has a "marlin" spike.


These were issued to the "Tommies" or soldiers.

The Naval knives didn't have the spike.

[IMBand]

The marlin spikes are also very good for opening/closing rigging shackles, esp the locking version.

IM

[jaswarb]

Here's a fun one.

NOT a sailor's knife or yachtsman's knife. No sharp point, yet it has a "marlin" spike.


These were issued to the "Tommies" or soldiers.

The Naval knives didn't have the spike.

Well I was considering the marlinspike on army knives and it makes sense.

Groundpounders of that day had lots of uses for rope. Horses still were the prevalent mode of transport for the Wehrmacht through WWII. Tents and wagons and cargo on trucks all tied with rope. Splicing rope wasn't uncommon. However combined with the lack of a spike on the navy knife it is really strange to find it with the infantry. Sounds like a bureaucratic mistake which was corrected by changing the milspec.

[CCBill]

I have heard that the spatula blade in a Doctor's knife was used by a Pharmacist for separating and counting pills to be put in to bottles . I dunno...
...CCBill...

[Owd Wullie]

Well I was considering the marlinspike on army knives and it makes sense.

Groundpounders of that day had lots of uses for rope. Horses still were the prevalent mode of transport for the Wehrmacht through WWII. Tents and wagons and cargo on trucks all tied with rope. Splicing rope wasn't uncommon. However combined with the lack of a spike on the navy knife it is really strange to find it with the infantry. Sounds like a bureaucratic mistake which was corrected by changing the milspec.

I figure it was intended that way as the swabbies had access to all the marlin spikes they needed with out having to include one on a knife.

[jaswarb]

I figure it was intended that way as the swabbies had access to all the marlin spikes they needed with out having to include one on a knife.

Makes good sense and would allow for restricting the pointy tools to safer areas.

[orvet]

Here is a Schrade Walden lifeboat knife.
These were in the survival kits on the life rafts, as I understand it.

[jerryd6818]

An illustration of Camillus blades taken from a 1965 Camillus catalog.

[whitebuffalo58]

Here's one I came across while doing research on a totally unrelated knife. The Cotton Sampler was originally designed and marketed in the 1800's as a folding skinning knife, but was adopted by buyers in the old south to cut samples from cotton bails. I think there are probably many such cases of form preceding function where knife design is concerned. WB

[sharalds]

would this style of blade hold up to being used as a pry bar?[img][/img][attachment=0]almar.jpg[/attachment]

[jaswarb]

would this style of blade hold up to being used as a pry bar?

almar.jpg

IF you were prying the cover off a pint of Hagen Daas.

No problem.

It looks as though it was designed to pierce vital organs.

[orvet]

The blade design on that Al Mar is designed to pierce.
The false edge on the back gives less resistance when pushing the blade in. If it were a fixed blade the back edge would have been sharpened, but that won’t work in a folder.

Al Mar worked for Gerber before he opened his own company, here in Oregon. Al served in the US Army as a Green Beret and studied martial arts extensively. Many of his knives are fighting knife patterns or variations of them. I think Al called that blade style the “Talon”. When Al was still alive, (he died in October 1992), he did not offer the false edge blade in the smaller patterns like the Hawk & Osprey, as I recall. There really is no advantage to a 2” fighting blade.

Al was a great knife designer, and a good friend.

[jerryd6818]

sharalds - You were just funnin', weren't you.