863?

[glennbad]

I'm pretty sure this is an 863, but does anyone know anything about Olsen?

[Shearer]

Jerry 6818 should know about it .Its the same pattern as the Camillus 72 and I think with Olsen on the side is fairly rare.It could be a contract knife from Camillus.

[jerryd6818]

According to what I've been able to find out, Olsen Knife Company from Howard City Michigan made some of their knives in house and contracted others, some in Germany, some in Japan and some domestically (Camillus, Schrade, Imperial, Queen?? )

The opinions run to fixed blades made in house and folders contracted out. I see yours has a Howard City MI USA stamp and plain long pull. Mine has a match strike long pull and Solingen Germany stamped on the back.

Any information I have is speculation on top of third hand speculation along with a heavy helping of by guess and by golly. As far as yours is concerned? Looks like it was made by the Schrade/Ulster/Imperial consortium to me. More speculation.

Nice find Glenn and thanks for solidifying my recent thoughts. I'm not a collector and I'm no longer going to run around, searching for specific knives. I'm going to continue my casual addicted accumulator ways and if one falls in my lap at a decent price I'll snap it up, other wise I'll continue to buy what catches my eye. All this collecting minutia is too tedious for my small mind.

Edit: I don't think yours is a Camillus because all Camillus I've seen (except the #5) have a match strike pull.

[glennbad]

Thanks for that info. It looks like they were made by a bunch of guys, but I think the fixed blades may have been made in-house.

Interesting mystery...

[thawk]

I've seen Ulsters with Olsen stamped blades.

[knifeaholic]

Every Olsen US made traditional slipjoint that I have ever seen matched Schrade tooling. I'm sure you have thought of this already, Glenn but if the knife has Swinden construction that nails it as a Schrade made knife.

Way back when I was a teen and beginning to learn knife repair on my own, I had never heard of Swinden rivets and assumed (incorrectly) that Schrade made knives were pinned the same as other brands. So....I made the mistake of taking apart an Olsen baby stockman to try to replace a broken pen blade...got a big surprise seeing the Swinden construction for the first time. Needless to say that knife never went back together.

[jerryd6818]

Every Olsen US made traditional slipjoint that I have ever seen matched Schrade tooling. I'm sure you have thought of this already, Glenn but if the knife has Swinden construction that nails it as a Schrade made knife.

Steve -- If you take a look at the Olsen I posted, you'll notice it is most definitely not Swinden Key construction. From the match strike main pull to the profile of the clip secondary, the entire knife says Camillus to me.

Glenn's knife on the other hand? As I said before, I would have to agree, Schrade (or maybe Ulster??).

[knifeaholic]

Every Olsen US made traditional slipjoint that I have ever seen matched Schrade tooling. I'm sure you have thought of this already, Glenn but if the knife has Swinden construction that nails it as a Schrade made knife.

Steve -- If you take a look at the Olsen I posted, you'll notice it is most definitely not Swinden Key construction. From the match strike main pull to the profile of the clip secondary, the entire knife says Camillus to me.

Glenn's knife on the other hand? As I said before, I would have to agree, Schrade (or maybe Ulster??).

Yes, yours looks like a German made Olsen knockoff of the 863. That's why I was careful to say "US Made Olsen" in my reply.

Of course after WWII Schrade and Ulster were essentially the same company (along with Imperial) so they shared tooling, etc. Ulster was just a notch down from Schrade in quality. But both Ulster and Schrade knives used the Swinden system.

[jerryd6818]

Yes, yours looks like a German made Olsen knockoff of the 863. That's why I was careful to say "US Made Olsen" in my reply.

"German made Olsen knockoff"? That confuses me. (yes, the knife I posted is stamped "Germany Solingen" so more of a Camillus knockoff made in Germany with an Olsen stamp)

Are you saying Schrade is the originator of this pattern? If so, I would have to strongly disagree. I would have to say Camillus was the first out with the Carpenter's & Whittler's pattern just after WWII in 1946 and the Schrade 863, plus the Ulster 63 along with all others are "knockoffs" of the Camillus #72.

If I misunderstood your intent, please enlighten me. The whole knife industry inbreeding gets very confusing for me. I sometimes think I'm in the wrong hobby for my personality.

[knifeaholic]

Yes, yours looks like a German made Olsen knockoff of the 863. That's why I was careful to say "US Made Olsen" in my reply.

"German made Olsen knockoff"? That confuses me. (yes, the knife I posted is stamped "Germany Solingen" so more of a Camillus knockoff made in Germany with an Olsen stamp)

Are you saying Schrade is the originator of this pattern? If so, I would have to strongly disagree. I would have to say Camillus was the first out with the Carpenter's & Whittler's pattern just after WWII in 1946 and the Schrade 863, plus the Ulster 63 along with all others are "knockoffs" of the Camillus #72.

If I misunderstood your intent, please enlighten me. The whole knife industry inbreeding gets very confusing for me. I sometimes think I'm in the wrong hobby for my personality.

I should have been more clear. IMO yours is a knife made in Germany on contract for Olsen, but a knockoff of the Schrade 863 or equivalent Camillus pattern (I do not know the Camillus pattern # off the top of my head). So its a knockoff in the sense that some German firm was copying an American pattern in making the knife on contract for Olsen.

I would concur that Camillus probably originated the pattern, but I do not know when the pattern was first listed in either Schrade or Camillus catalogs. I have an early Camillus version and an early Schrade Walden KON KAV version, both with bone handles.

You may already know this, but Utica also offered the same pattern with the KUTMASTER tang stamp. I have owned them with Rogers bone handles from the 1950's to 1960's era, but they are much scarcer than the Camillus and Schrade versions.

[jerryd6818]

Thanks. I've never heard of the Schrade Walden KON KAV version. If you get an opportunity, would you please post a picture. Also didn't know Utica made them so there's one more I have to keep an eye out for.

[tongueriver]

But both Ulster and Schrade knives used the Swinden system.

If any Ulster had Swinden construction, it was made in the Schrade buildings, not Ulster (by name) buildings. However, I think maybe Schrade moved into some of the Ulster buildings, so this may be moot. Meanwhile, I am going to look at the pre-1947 Schrade catalogs tomorrow when I get off work, because I think this pattern was in one of the pages.

[knifeaholic]

But both Ulster and Schrade knives used the Swinden system.

If any Ulster had Swinden construction, it was made in the Schrade buildings, not Ulster (by name) buildings. However, I think maybe Schrade moved into some of the Ulster buildings, so this may be moot. Meanwhile, I am going to look at the pre-1947 Schrade catalogs tomorrow when I get off work, because I think this pattern was in one of the pages.

Ulster knives were definitely made with Swinden construction, as I have seen them disassembled. It really is moot since Imperial/Schrade/Ulster were the same company, equipment and/or production could have been moved around from one plant location to another. In theory any knife with any of their owned trademark stamps could have been made in any one of the plants.

[jerryd6818]

But both Ulster and Schrade knives used the Swinden system.

If any Ulster had Swinden construction, it was made in the Schrade buildings, not Ulster (by name) buildings. However, I think maybe Schrade moved into some of the Ulster buildings, so this may be moot. Meanwhile, I am going to look at the pre-1947 Schrade catalogs tomorrow when I get off work, because I think this pattern was in one of the pages.

If you find it, would love to see a copy of that page from the catalog.

[orvet]

Ulster knives were definitely made with Swinden construction, as I have seen them disassembled. It really is moot since Imperial/Schrade/Ulster were the same company, equipment and/or production could have been moved around from one plant location to another. In theory any knife with any of their owned trademark stamps could have been made in any one of the plants.

I have also seen Ulster knives made with the Swinden system, as well as Imperial. We also know the different companies most likely made parts for one another, as well as completed knives. However, I believe the only company to have a Swinden machine was the Schrade plant; this according to Phil Gibbs (of Camillus). So if he is correct, (and I believe he is), the only thing we can know with 100% certainty is that if the knife has the Swinden system, it was made in the Schrade factory.

Jerry mentioned the “knife industry inbreeding,” which further confuses the issue. Camillus made knives for many of the US knife manufactures including Ulster, Imperial and Schrade; as well as making lots of parts for Schrade. What makes it even more confusing is that Schrade only began using the Swinden machine around 1961. The Swinden patent was filed January 6, 1960 and the patent was granted April 4. 1961. It is likely the machine was in use prior to the patient being granted, to prove the feasibility of the patent. So………… Schrade Walden knives made before the Swinden machine are of course made without the Swinden system.

We can be pretty certain of two things:
1- If a knife is made with the Swinden system, Schrade made it.
2- If it was made with pins through the bolsters, any of the companies could have made it.

If you find it, would love to see a copy of that page from the catalog.

I would like to see that is well.

[tongueriver]

Here is the progenitor of the 863, found in the 1936 supplement to the Schrade Cutco catalog E. As you can see, it is not quite the same knife. They also made some jacks on this frame.

[jerryd6818]

And pretty much a doppelgänger to this Camillus from WWII or before (including the shield). Note the Schrade came in an SC8633-3/4 which was with a small clip instead of a pen. I would love to look at a 1946 Schrade catalog to see if there is an 863 in it.

[tongueriver]

Here are the known Schrade catalogs (and don't forget to click on HOME, as well):

http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/ ... /index.htm

[jerryd6818]

Thanks. That clears up some things. The 863 wasn't in the 1947 catalog but it was in the 1954 catalog.

[thawk]

Thanks. That clears up some things. The 863 wasn't in the 1947 catalog but it was in the 1954 catalog.

Just because it is not in the picture catalog does not indicate they did not offer them. However, I have a 1950 price list... no 863. I think there was some lag time from when the stopped the 8663 3/4 and began the 863. But that is just Schrade, and then there is Ulster to consider.

[thawk]

Schrade Walden NY USA 863 - Bonestag handles. It is etched with KON-KAV, hard to see here.

[tongueriver]

The variety displayed of whittlers on that Ulster page is amazing!

[Ramrod]

Thanks. That clears up some things. The 863 wasn't in the 1947 catalog but it was in the 1954 catalog.

Just because it is not in the picture catalog does not indicate they did not offer them. However, I have a 1950 price list... no 863. I think there was some lag time from when the stopped the 8663 3/4 and began the 863. But that is just Schrade, and then there is Ulster to consider.

Awesome.
Is 389 a lockback?
Mark

[ea42]

Balloon frame knives were a common knife made by virtually every cutlery company in the early late nineteenth-early twentieth century. They were most often made in double and triple blade configurations, with the triples utilizing the split center liner. Just because a knife has a tapered liner does not automatically make it a whittler. there are plenty of those configurations on many paterns, such as balloons, senators, wharncliffs, sleeveboards, etc, with some blade configurations including files or other implements that have absolutely nothing to do with whittling. It was simply a way to keep a knife slim while providing a useful number of blades, with the pocket blade being more robust that would normally be possible with a two spring setup. It's a very pleasing setup visually as well, seems to be more balanced with the small blades on one side.

As far as the Olsens, a little history is in order. In the late 1950's, Schrade started making a line of knives for Cole National under the Sabre Monarch brand. There were plastic handles with a distinctive jigging pattern that came to be known as the Cole National covers that were to be used exlusively on these knives. The patterns were Schrade and Ulster patterns, which were the 193, 81, 98, 293, 82, 66, 225, 50, and 10. The Sabre knives used their own numbers rather than Schrade/Ulsters, all of which ranged from 201 to 231, and not numerically either, lots of numbers were obviously skipped. These were made until I believe the late sixties. I think then the Cole company started running into difficulties, or perhaps ownership changes, but nevertheless manufacturing was moved to Japan and elsewhere.

Enter Lee Olsen in 1970, looking for a line of pocket knives to compliment his fixed blade manufacturing business. Schrade just happened to have a slew of Cole National covers on hand, plus the molds to make more, so it was decided to use those for the Olsen knives. These were supplied with the Olsen tang stamp and shield as well. Now just to confuse things he got some Ulsters with the standard Ulster jigging as well, but tang stamped with Olsen's tang. The Ulsters were the 81S, 81P, 183, 89S, 89P, 50, 55, 63, 114, and 208, with Olsen's numbers on those being 100 to 109 in that order. The Schrade knives were the 708, 808, 233, 834, 787, 193, 293, 881, 125, 225, with the Olsen numbers going from 110 to 119 in that order. By the way those Cole covers also found there way to several other knives, including some scouts.

I've got pics of a couple of Sabres below, I'll put up a few Olsens as well as soon as I snap some pics.

BTW, Lee had a BIG Cadilac that he liked to drive to dinner VERY fast down the dirt roads of Michigan

Eric

[ea42]

Here's a scan of some of the Olsens I mentioned above, by the way they did also contarct to Germany for some folders and stag sheath knives, so that German folder on page one is likely legit.

Eric