Bad 787 Wonda

A place to discuss & share pictures of counterfeit knives. Please be sure to alert the AAPK community if you spot one. Also make sure to ask questions if you are not certain about the authenticity of a knife you are considering buying or selling. There are plenty of great people here willing to help.
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jxr1197
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Bad 787 Wonda

Post by jxr1197 »

Knives offered by long time dealers aren’t beyond reproach – seems like that ought to be a no brainer. Even when the seller has a massive following on ebay and friends in the forums that have their back no matter what the scenario is - none of that changes the fact that there are seriously questionable knives on the table that are flying more red flags than a Chinese parade.

Today we study a 787 wonda blade knife.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/OLD-SCHRADE-WA ... Sw8lpeUvau
787auction.jpg
Everything on that knife is Schrade but it’s two knives put together from two different eras. The 787 wonda edge was made in 1957 & 1958. It’s a single spring knife with rounded, threaded bolsters and bone handles. They are rare as hens teeth. Here is what the knife looks like:
787WE.jpg
The knife being sold here is a double spring Delrin knife made sometime between ’62-’73. That knife was made with the Swinden key system but when it was doctored it was put back together with pin through bolsters as seen here:
Inked787bpin_LI.jpg
Schrade made three multi-blade folders (225, 293 & 787) with wonda edge blades as secondaries and they never tang stamped the wonda blade on any of those knives. The reason this 787 has a tang stamped wonda blade is because the blade was welded onto that tang, but I’ll circle back to that in a moment. Also notable is that the wonda blade is on the right when looking at the mark side of this knife. The wonda edge blade on a correct knife is on the left side.
wondatangs.jpg
There are already enough red flags to label it a bad knife but there’s more. When you look closely at the base of the blade right above the tang you can see a horizontal line of perfectly round circles, the most prominent being the center one. There’s only one reasonable explanation for them given the context – they’re marks left by the electrode when it was welded. It also appears to have hammer marks on the back of the tang.
Inked787aclose_LI.jpg
787ctang.jpg
It’s also curious how the patina ends abruptly just below the stamp on both sides of the tang. If you stuck the blade into a piece of fruit to force a patina but left the lower portion of the tang exposed, seems like you’d have a patina line like that.
787bpin.jpg
787ctang.jpg
It’s a little harder to see on the front, but on both sides of the blade the patina is lighter at the edge. Maybe it was sharpened after the patina was added?
Inked787b_LI.jpg
Inked787c_LI.jpg
*Pro-tip: you’re only supposed to sharpen the back edge of a wonda blade. Whoever monkeyed with this knife didn’t know that.

It’s doubtful many (if any) ebay followers would catch these flags and there will always be those who will choose to believe it’s a legit knife despite all signs pointing in the other direction. All good, to each their own – I’m not trying to change hearts and minds here, just documenting the situation.

A common reaction to knives that don’t look right is ‘why would someone fake this knife’ but right here we’ve got a 787 that would get around $25 if it wasn’t turned into a wannabe wonda knife. How much do you figure it will go for now – ten times that amount? Twenty times that amount? Stay tuned to find out.


Maybe the seller unknowingly bought a group of knives from a bad guy. Maybe it’s from the estate of a collector who made frankeknives for fun. Maybe the seller is out in his garage right now practicing his technique to hide the circles better. No way of knowing but now that the knife is revealed as an ‘aftermarket creation’ (I’m being polite – it’s a forgery) I’m curious if that info will trickle down to the folks on that auction who are bidding right now on what they think is a legit – and extremely rare knife.

At the time I'm posting this the auction has 16 watchers and six active bidders.
- Jason
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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by Gunsil »

Knife may be wrong, but to call George "itsafaker" is just plain wrong. George is a well known dealer who buys and sells a lot of vintage knives, many of which are fine quality high end old knives. None of us, nobody can know everything about every brand and every model of knife. George does not work on knives, clean, polish, or modify knives in any way as many members here do, he was NOT the faker and to call him such is unkind and uncalled for. I am sure if you presented him with proof he would change his listing. I am not the biggest fan of his, I have had a problem dealing with him in the past but he is not a faker and we get along fine. Any one of us can be fooled by a knife, George likely just picked that knife up at the Lewisburg show last weekend and is flipping it as found and he likely doesn't know all you do about such "modern" Schrade knives as he mostly deals in older knives. Like I said, tell him instead of us and I bet he will change the listing.
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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by jxr1197 »

Gunsil wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:38 pmtell him instead of us and I bet he will change the listing.
You're getting mad at the messenger. And sometimes people ignore suggestions that they have a bad knife up for sale.

If it matters, the itsafaker reference was actually directed at the knife.
- Jason
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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by just bob »

My friend jxr1197 you did an excellent job of posting the pictures and explaining your point of view on the knife in question. That type of information is very much appreciated by the many of the readers of this forum like myself. Thank you for taking the time required to create such an excellent post.
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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by KLJ77 »

Jason,

Great review and write up on this forgery. ::tu:: I found it very interesting, for I would have never considered the 'red flags' you indicated.

As a side note: The seller could very well not know that he is selling a suspected counterfeit knife. ::shrug::
LJ

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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by tnorton »

jxr1197 - thanks for the info and explanation - I think your description and info is why AAPK started this forum - thanks i'm always willing to learn
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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by ITSAKILLER »

Jason, it would have been nice of you to send me a note on EBAY and share your knowledge with me. Instead you chose to call me a faker with a play on words with my seller name. I do not appreciate that. I would never even have considered they would fake a Schrade with Delrin handles. WOW, I can't believe that. I will take a really good look at the knife when I get home from work & if it looks like you are right I will end the listing. Are you a Schrade expert? You posted that the Wonder blade was never stamped but with a quick search I found one on blade forums. So you are wrong there my friend.
Gunsil, thank for the kind words, I don't remember us ever having a problem,sorry to hear that. Please send me a message & refresh my memory. I did just buy that knife at the Lewisbug show Saturday, seller wanted 40 bucks & I remember having one a while back that went for good money so I jumped on it.
Here is a pic of the knife I found on the net And a link to the thread, it has the round bolsters and is stamped on the serrated blade. I do believe there are always exceptions, & transitions where they used older parts. There are certainly fakes too & I would never sell one knowingly, I am not out to screw anyone as Jason suggested & I don't work on knives in my garage nor would I have any idea how to weld a freaking blade. I will do some research on the knife & take the appropriate action.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/var ... at.431458/
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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by edge213 »

See "Strange Schrade" in the Counterfeit Watch.
David
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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by Gunsil »

KLJ77 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:36 pm Jason,

Great review and write up on this forgery. ::tu:: I found it very interesting, for I would have never considered the 'red flags' you indicated.

As a side note: I agree that; you DID NOT call anyone a "faker"...only the knife you described. Your entire narrative was about the knife, not any one individual. The seller could very well not know that he is selling a counterfeit knife. ::shrug::
The seller's ebay name is "itsakiller" and that is also his AAPK name. How you don't see using "itsafaker" is an aspersion is beyond me. Jason, I am not mad at anybody not even the messenger. I stand beside my saying you are slandering the man by making up the itsafaker from his handle.
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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by jxr1197 »

ITSAKILLER wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:03 pm Jason, it would have been nice of you to send me a note on EBAY and share your knowledge with me. Instead you chose to call me a faker with a play on words with my seller name. I do not appreciate that. I would never even have considered they would fake a Schrade with Delrin handles. WOW, I can't believe that. I will take a really good look at the knife when I get home from work & if it looks like you are right I will end the listing. Are you a Schrade expert? You posted that the Wonder blade was never stamped but with a quick search I found one on blade forums. So you are wrong there my friend.
Gunsil, thank for the kind words, I don't remember us ever having a problem,sorry to hear that. Please send me a message & refresh my memory. I did just buy that knife at the Lewisbug show Saturday, seller wanted 40 bucks & I remember having one a while back that went for good money so I jumped on it.
Here is a pic of the knife I found on the net And a link to the thread, it has the round bolsters and is stamped on the serrated blade. I do believe there are always exceptions, & transitions where they used older parts. There are certainly fakes too & I would never sell one knowingly, I am not out to screw anyone as Jason suggested & I don't work on knives in my garage nor would I have any idea how to weld a freaking blade. I will do some research on the knife & take the appropriate action.
I already addressed that the itsafaker reference was directed at the knife and nowhere did I say you were out to screw people - in fact I went out of my way to say the knives may have come from any number of sources. I do understand why you're trying to point the spotlight towards semantics - I probably would too if I were in your shoes right about now.

I have no opinion of the knives you showed pictures of. They're beautiful and very unique. Oddly, they both have serrations starting a half inch above the tang. They could be samples for all I know.

Now for the main part of the discussion. If your going to get indignant about me choosing to not handle this in a way that protects your privacy - well, tough. This part of the forum is here to show people bad knives and when people told you that the Cut Co you listed last week looked wrong for MANY reasons you dismissed the information being offered and then sold the knife for $432. After that you think I'd be better off whispering in your ear that you put another bad knife up for sale?

I don't know you but I'm perfectly fine believing the folks who say you wouldn't fake knives and these had to be recent purchases - a scenario I alluded to above. The issue is barreling through with sales AFTER being told a knife looks wrong without any further review.
- Jason
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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by jxr1197 »

Gunsil wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:44 pm Jason, I am not mad at anybody not even the messenger. I stand beside my saying you are slandering the man by making up the itsafaker from his handle.
And again, I was talking about the knife. You knew that before you made your reply above.
- Jason
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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by ITSAKILLER »

Jason (I am assuming that is your name), I have a question, are you saying the blade was welded & repined? Why would they take it apart if they were welding a blade on it? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of welding?
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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by KLJ77 »

Gunsil wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:44 pm
KLJ77 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:36 pm Jason,

Great review and write up on this forgery. ::tu:: I found it very interesting, for I would have never considered the 'red flags' you indicated.

As a side note: I agree that; you DID NOT call anyone a "faker"...only the knife you described. Your entire narrative was about the knife, not any one individual. The seller could very well not know that he is selling a counterfeit knife. ::shrug::
The seller's ebay name is "itsakiller" and that is also his AAPK name. How you don't see using "itsafaker" is an aspersion is beyond me. Jason, I am not mad at anybody not even the messenger. I stand beside my saying you are slandering the man by making up the itsafaker from his handle.
I didn't put his ebay name/handle and the post title together until George himself posted what he did...and THEN I noticed the 'play on words.' So, yeah...it's a bit insensitive to call someone out like that. Nevertheless, it was a insightful write up about the 'knife'.

I don't have a dog in this fight, so I'll just go on ahead and step out of this thread and leave it to those who desire to 'carry on, smartly.' ::paranoid::
LJ

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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by jxr1197 »

ITSAKILLER wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:58 pm Jason (I am assuming that is your name), I have a question, are you saying the blade was welded & repined? Why would they take it apart if they were welding a blade on it? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of welding?
I don't make knives so I'm not really qualified to answer that but I imagine that type of blistering heat might be bad for the Delrin a quarter inch away from where it's being welded.
- Jason
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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by Steve Warden »

My two cents - if someone is going to post a knife they believe is fake, the reasons, explanations and pics given are THE way to do it.

Hopefully people posting in the future of what they believe to be a fake will follow the example.
Not much irks me more than someone posting a pic and leaving it with the lone comment of, "Fake from across the room!" ::disgust::
Take care and God bless,

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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by KnifeSlinger#81 »

I don't see any welding evidence or pin through in these pictures. They're just not clear enough to tell if it was welded and if they did that good of a job. With the knife in hand maybe something could be seen but I really don't think there's anything there. The haze on the edge is very common when they were factory sharpened and they hit the edge with a buffer for the final touch. It's most often seen on the stainless walden era knives.

There were many knives that schrade made but did not catalog, and they also made changes without notification. The wonda edge being on the main, perhaps uncommon, is not enough of an oddity to say it couldn't be factory. There have been stranger things from the schrade factory. Examples of a wonda edge main have also been seen. There is nothing that points me in the direction of it being non factory original. It's also very unlikely that somebody would fake a delrin schrade and go to the trouble to do a really good job at that. Even old bone handle schrades are rarely faked and they are worth much more than delrins.
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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by tnorton »

I looked at the post on ebay ( I even bid on it to follow ) I see no evidence of welded blade with the few pics, if it's welded blade best job I've seen - replaced blade is easier to get by with I think - I'm like Itsakiller I might cleanup a knife a little but don't modify them, I wouldn't even know how. I mainly collect what I call retro Schrades usually with the tube or box and I know Schrade made some unique knives at times for short periods , etc . I'm sure ITSAKILLER will look the knife over and make us more informed - I don't know any of you, but I don't think either reputation is in jeopardy - I do like discussions on knives how else can we learn - all that said I kinda like the knife :|
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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by btrwtr »

IMO George is on the up and up and as Gene said none of us are beyond being fooled far as I know. With the things that have been pointed out in detail I do agree the knife may not be right but that should not put a bad reflection on the dealer.

We want AAPK to be a place where knives can be honestly discussed and at times verified right or wrong. I think that is the important issue.
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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by Mumbleypeg »

btrwtr wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:43 pm IMO George is on the up and up and as Gene said none of us are beyond being fooled far as I know. With the things that have been pointed out in detail I do agree the knife may not be right but that should not put a bad reflection on the dealer.

We want AAPK to be a place where knives can be honestly discussed and at times verified right or wrong. I think that is the important issue.
Good post Wayne, and I agree. I’ve posted my share of items in the counterfeit forum, and try to explain in those posts why I believe the knife to be bad. However I refrain from making any comments about the seller, unless the seller is a serial offender. We all can be fooled - don’t ask me how I know. ::facepalm::

I’ve also sent messages through eBay to many sellers, advising them the knife listed by them is a fake and explaining why (within the limited number of characters eBay allows). Responses vary from “thanks for letting me know” followed by removal of the item or modifying the listing, to “mind your own busines”, to “ my neighbor says it’s a good knife”. :lol:

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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by kootenay joe »

I think this knife is an all original Schrade. There are always 'odd' Schrade knives that show up that nobody can recall seeing before. This is due in part to Schrade not wasting old blades or parts but assembling them into finished knives.
I think the OP might be 'over reading' this knife. I do not see evidence of welding and both ends might be pin through construction.
I would like to see a cutler, especially one who worked at Schrade, comment on this knife. Knowing how work happened with making & assembling knives would give insight into how this knife came to be and therefore whether it is legitimate or an after factory fake.
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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by Shearer »

I purchased this knife about eight years ago.I purchased it from the son of the original owner.He stated the the knife was purchased new by his father with the serrations.
Schrade USA 77OT .Sorry about the poor pictures it's still night here.
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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by jxr1197 »

KnifeSlinger#81 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:33 pm I don't see any welding evidence or pin through in these pictures. They're just not clear enough to tell if it was welded and if they did that good of a job. With the knife in hand maybe something could be seen but I really don't think there's anything there. The haze on the edge is very common when they were factory sharpened and they hit the edge with a buffer for the final touch. It's most often seen on the stainless walden era knives.

There were many knives that schrade made but did not catalog, and they also made changes without notification. The wonda edge being on the main, perhaps uncommon, is not enough of an oddity to say it couldn't be factory. There have been stranger things from the schrade factory. Examples of a wonda edge main have also been seen. There is nothing that points me in the direction of it being non factory original. It's also very unlikely that somebody would fake a delrin schrade and go to the trouble to do a really good job at that. Even old bone handle schrades are rarely faked and they are worth much more than delrins.
I always respect your opinion on knives - you've got a good eye. But we're not going to agree on this one today. But that's not actually why I replied. It's the question of welding. There are more than a few guys out there who do weld new blades to old tangs and some are really good at it and could easily fool you. I think most of the knife mechanics avoid this because of the ethical question but if you want to restore one of your old knives this way you would have no problem finding someone for the job. I think the fact that there is evidence of welding (I know you disagree) is just reason to believe that whoever did it is still an amateur at it.
Mumbleypeg wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:14 pm
btrwtr wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:43 pm IMO George is on the up and up and as Gene said none of us are beyond being fooled far as I know. With the things that have been pointed out in detail I do agree the knife may not be right but that should not put a bad reflection on the dealer.

We want AAPK to be a place where knives can be honestly discussed and at times verified right or wrong. I think that is the important issue.
Good post Wayne, and I agree. I’ve posted my share of items in the counterfeit forum, and try to explain in those posts why I believe the knife to be bad. However I refrain from making any comments about the seller, unless the seller is a serial offender. We all can be fooled - don’t ask me how I know. ::facepalm::

I’ve also sent messages through eBay to many sellers, advising them the knife listed by them is a fake and explaining why (within the limited number of characters eBay allows). Responses vary from “thanks for letting me know” followed by removal of the item or modifying the listing, to “mind your own busines”, to “ my neighbor says it’s a good knife”. :lol:

Ken
I agree with everything you both said there. As far as making this personal, I think I did a pretty good job of staying neutral on the seller in my first post. Yes I made a play on his screen name a couple of times but I'm surprised that's where the focus keeps going. Take those out of the text and my references to the seller are maybe he did it, maybe he didn't. The follow up comments might have been a little more defensive for several people but I don't think the first post reads like an accusation.
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Re: Bad 787 Wonda

Post by jxr1197 »

All itsa-references have been removed. I didn't realize how much of a distraction that was going to turn into. Happy to keep talking about the knife and sharing opinions -
- Jason
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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by Gunsil »

jxr1197 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:53 pm
Gunsil wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:44 pm Jason, I am not mad at anybody not even the messenger. I stand beside my saying you are slandering the man by making up the itsafaker from his handle.
And again, I was talking about the knife. You knew that before you made your reply above.
That may be the way you MEANT your sentence to come out, but if you re-read your original post it sounds like you mean the seller not the knife. Are you just a cranky old guy? I most certainly did NOT know you meant the knife by your own use of the English language when I wrote my original post. I do not write to annoy. One more thing, George has handled and inspected many more knives than most members here for many years and has never knowingly sold a bad knife that I have ever heard about and I have known him for over thirty years. I also agree that it COULD be possible but quite unlikely that anybody would bother welding up a blade on a Schrade delrin knife.

I hope Eric weighs in on this one since he worked for Schrade and knows more about their later knives than most. I like the counterfeit watch but have also seen good knives posted as bad knives by members here. He who calls a knife bad has to have indelible proof of his/her statement. This knife in particular seems to have a few guys believing it is original and I too see no signs of welding.
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Re: itsanewday itsanewfake

Post by jxr1197 »

Gunsil wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:50 pm
jxr1197 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:53 pm
Gunsil wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:44 pm Jason, I am not mad at anybody not even the messenger. I stand beside my saying you are slandering the man by making up the itsafaker from his handle.
And again, I was talking about the knife. You knew that before you made your reply above.
That may be the way you MEANT your sentence to come out, but if you re-read your original post it sounds like you mean the seller not the knife. Are you just a cranky old guy? I most certainly did NOT know you meant the knife by your own use of the English language when I wrote my original post. I do not write to annoy. One more thing, George has handled and inspected many more knives than most members here for many years and has never knowingly sold a bad knife that I have ever heard about and I have known him for over thirty years. I also agree that it COULD be possible but quite unlikely that anybody would bother welding up a blade on a Schrade delrin knife.

I hope Eric weighs in on this one since he worked for Schrade and knows more about their later knives than most. I like the counterfeit watch but have also seen good knives posted as bad knives by members here. He who calls a knife bad has to have indelible proof of his/her statement. This knife in particular seems to have a few guys believing it is original and I too see no signs of welding.
I'd rather keep the conversation on the knife but I'll answer you first. If you'll look at the second post on this thread you objected to me using the itsafaker reference. The next post is me telling you it was directed at the knife. Several posts down you again said it was about your friend and slanderous. After that is when I told you that you already knew what I meant. Can we get past that or am I being cranky? Sounds slanderous to me..

I know who Eric is and I know his qualifications (and apparently I know his resume better than you do) and if he stops by and schools me, then so be it. His is probably the only opinion I would take above my own in this thread - and for that matter do you realize that I'm the only one who has actually offered an opinion so far? The members who believe the knife is legit have not said why. Not one of them. Would you even be here if it wasn't your friend who owned the knife? Seems like the counterfeit forum is a great resource unless someone you know gets called out. I knew this would be the case and it has no influence on my opinion.

Let's get on to the knife. You believe that the knife is factory. Not because it's your friend's but because you legitimately believe that right? You have doubts about why someone would do this to a Delrin knife. Why does the motivation matter? Lots of people take broken knives and make a good one out of the parts, or maybe it was created to commit fraud. Not for nothing but that is a $25 knife that will likely sell for a lot more money because of the mod - so in this case the Delrin angle doesn't really apply in my opinion.

Since the welding seems to be the sore point I'd like to hear your theory. If you look at the pic you can't miss the circles at the base of the blade. Given all the other factors I came to the conclusion that I was probably looking at leftover marks from the electrode. Since you see no signs of welding, what do you suppose caused those scars?
- Jason
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