Western States pearl composition whittler

[Gone2Three]

Good afternoon friends,
I wanted to inquire about the material used for this little knife. I picked it up in a bundled deal unknowing of the brand stamp. The seller wasn't sure due to the pitting around the tang stamps.
As you can see from the pictures there is some shrinkage of the scales and minor hairline cracking. But overall very clean.
So my question is has anyone else here have a similar knife with this material, and if so is there a problem with out gassing? I can not find any rust or issues associated with the effects other than the pitting.
I didn't pay much for it, so not a high value loss if its going south... it still has great snap and no play.
Appreciate the feedback and any other details you may be able to help with.
Merry Christmas y'all, Randy

[peanut740]

Aka,mother-of-toilet seat handles.

[TPK]

Good afternoon friends...
Merry Christmas y'all, Randy

Cool looking knife with a cool stamp Randy! Congrats on the nice find!

[kootenay joe]

Some people call this "Cracked Ice" celluloid even though it is not white like pearl that it imitates. It is a celluloid that seems to last longer than many other celluloids. From the shrinkage you can tell it has off gassed a little. It could stay like this for years or continue to break down.
kj

[edge213]

Some people call this "Cracked Ice" celluloid even though it is not white like pearl that it imitates. It is a celluloid that seems to last longer than many other celluloids. From the shrinkage you can tell it has off gassed a little. It could stay like this for years or continue to break down.
kj

First, this is not a disagreement with what you said.
"From the shrinkage you can tell it has off gassed a little ".
I have seen a lot of celluloid that shows some shrinkage, but no other signs of outgassing. I seems to me it can shrink a little without actually outgassing.

What say you?

[Gunsil]

I agree that this type of cell is often pretty stable and I agree that celluloid can shrink without outgassing.

[Ripster]

Hey Randy ,if you don’t want to remove the handles, then store in dry place, out of the sun . That’s what I was told ,so my old advertising knives , with 2or 3 digit phone numbers is what I’ve done over the years. They’ve held up okay,still wouldn’t trust it enough to store with any that are valuable. It can outgas in no time once it starts.
There are some good posts here atAAPK regarding celluloid material.
Take care ,stay safe . MERRY CHRISTMAS/ HAPPY HOLIDAYS.

[Gone2Three]

Good afternoon friends...
Merry Christmas y'all, Randy

Cool looking knife with a cool stamp Randy! Congrats on the nice find!

Why thank you Tom

[Gone2Three]

Appreciate the excellent information gentlemen, I've seen some pretty ugly out gassing casualties posted here. That's why I was asking, it didn't seem like the others with major rusting and all.
The pitting and minor shrinkage are the only visual queues.
With that said, I'll make sure to keep it with my other celluloid friends
Thanks

[tongueriver]

I have owned some WESTERN knives with this cracked ice celluloid and I can tell you that it does indeed gas and cause rusting of the steel in the vicinity. It is not a good risk as cracked ice from other makers go.

[kootenay joe]

I agree that this type of cell is often pretty stable and I agree that celluloid can shrink without outgassing.

By what means does it shrink if not by out gassing ?
I think this needs an organic chemist to answer. It is not shrinking from loss of moisture but it has to undergo some chemical reaction to cause it to loose volume.
The pre-Delrin 'plastics' used for knife handles can shrink greatly but these are not off gassing. There must be some chemical reaction that causes the molecular structure to react and re-arrange itself into something that takes up less space. It was the search for a stable plastic that does not shrink that lead to the invention of Delrin.
kj

[Gone2Three]

I agree that this type of cell is often pretty stable and I agree that celluloid can shrink without outgassing.

By what means does it shrink if not by out gassing ?
I think this needs an organic chemist to answer. It is not shrinking from loss of moisture but it has to undergo some chemical reaction to cause it to loose volume.
The pre-Delrin 'plastics' used for knife handles can shrink greatly but these are not off gassing. There must be some chemical reaction that causes the molecular structure to react and re-arrange itself into something that takes up less space. It was the search for a stable plastic that does not shrink that lead to the invention of Delrin.
kj

Very interesting topic, and this is why I asked here on the fourm. I've avoided investing in celluloid material knives just for this particular reason.
I own about 6 that I keep separate from the collection. About half were purchased prior to joining here, now I'm weary or just paranoid about having them around

[zzyzzogeton]

Just an aside --- Western NEVER called it "cracked ice".

Western's advertising spiel was "Composition Pearl" or "Pearl Composition".

This is a 2363T, made in 1941. The sheeps foot blade is a post-sale modification. The knife was also made as the 2363TF, with a nail file in place of one of the smaller pen knife blades.

This specific model was not revived after WW2. The leading 2 indicates Pearl Composition. The first 3 indicates the number of blades. The 63 is the pattern, an equal end pen knife. The trailing T indicated the knife has "tip bolsters", skinny little bolsters on the tip of the handles.

[Gone2Three]

Just an aside --- Western NEVER called it "cracked ice".

Western's advertising spiel was "Composition Pearl" or "Pearl Composition".

This is a 2363T, made in 1941. The sheeps foot blade is a post-sale modification. The knife was also made as the 2363TF, with a nail file in place of one of the smaller pen knife blades.

This specific model was not revived after WW2. The leading 2 indicates Pearl Composition. The first 3 indicates the number of blades. The 63 is the pattern, an equal end pen knife. The trailing T indicated the knife has "tip bolsters", skinny little bolsters on the tip of the handles.

Wow, thanks!...I couldn't find anything whatsoever on my search originally except the name of the material as stated in my title.
I really appreciate the information on this particular knife

[1967redrider]

I was looking at a 4 line Camillus utility knife with black (comp?) scales, and they shrank much like a fur hide would with none of the out-gassing corrosiveness. It just shrank like a drum stretched taught by the pins. So I think certain materials can shrink without bombing out the blades and liners.

M other
O f
T oilet
S eat

is a play on the real Mother Of Pearl handle material.

[Gone2Three]

I was looking at a 4 line Camillus utility knife with black (comp?) scales, and they shrank much like a fur hide would with none of the out-gassing corrosiveness. It just shrank like a drum stretched taught by the pins. So I think certain materials can shrink without bombing out the blades and liners.

M other
O f
T oilet
S eat

is a play on the real Mother Of Pearl handle material.

I've got more than a few of these comp handle knives myself, one of which is also a 4 line camillus camp knife. It's a solid old knife, just has some shrinking of the scales like the others I've seen.

[kootenay joe]

I too have a few of the Camillus knives with jigged black plastic that has shrunk ++. It's not celluloid because blades/bolsters are not stained or corroded. Delrin came into use in 1960 so these knives are likely 1950's ?
kj

[knife7knut]

I have a theory about why certain colors of celluloid seem to be more prone to outgassing or degradation or whatever you wish to call it.
Although not a hard and fast rule the ones that seem to deteriorate the most are clear handles and the "cracked ice" versions that are mostly white in color. When I was working in a body shop back in the early 1970's we had a lot of problems with clear coatings(which were just starting to be used extensively on factory finishes)deteriorating badly in a relatively short time.
Before they started using the newer acrylic finishes which are for the most part crystal clear,the nitrocellulose clears always had a bit of yellow toner added to them to make them more stable.They did eventually deteriorate but it took a much longer period of time to start.
As celluloid is composed of the same basic materials as nitrocellulose lacquer,it also seems to work in the same manner:clear and white handles seem to go faster than ones with a yellowish tint and other colors.As for the shrinkage problem,that is part of the drying process.As celluloid is essentially nitrocellulose fiber,camphor,and alcohol the first component is the evaporation of the alcohol followed I would think by the camphor. The rate at which these chemicals are lost may or may not be dependent on whether the proper mixture was done at the time of manufacture.Even a slight variance in composition could cause a drastic change.
Newer acrylic products such as paints have other problems to deal with.Two part paints(base and catalyst)depend on a precise mixture of components to effect a proper cure.Too much or too little of one or the other can cause it to never cure or cure too rapidly and not adhere properly. Another factor is temperature.If a two part coating is applied on too cold a surface(usually under 40 degreesF) or it is left out in the cold the top layer may cure but it will remain soft indefinitely. DO NOT ask me how I know this!
Anyway that is my take on out-gassing for what it's worth.